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Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers
Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers
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Old 24th November 2016, 06:30 AM   #121
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default sorry for not mentioning...

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Originally Posted by musiklava79 View Post
Nice Build!
I Can't make out from the attached image whether they are Frugel-Horn Mk.3s or Frugel-Horn Lites, though. Will appreciate it if you will clarify.
The build is one of the most recent flat pack kits, so I assume MkIIIs. Shipped in late September or October of this year.
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Old 24th November 2016, 11:16 AM   #122
twocents is offline twocents  South Africa
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Frugel-Horn Lite for 3" drivers
Looks like Mk3's if I judge the size against the furniture.

Stew, good memories - I grew up with one of those Sansui's in our living room! That's where my love for music and hifi started. Neil Diamond - Hot August Night. I suddenly feel old.
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Old 24th November 2016, 04:49 PM   #123
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Yup, would have been FH3s - while it would seem to be relatively simple to fabricate and ship kits for the smaller design - life gets in the way of your plans. FHL kits have suffered delays well beyond Dave's control.
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Old 26th November 2016, 04:28 AM   #124
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default of old Sansui gear and Frugalhorns

hi guys (sorry if off topic for this thread)

I had never owned any of the old (but quite good) Sansui gear, but do have a 8080DB receiver hiding somewhere in the house. Same as a 9090, (apparently even the transformers are the same), but with lower voltage on the rails and hence the lower power output. I think the AU555/TU666 were layer. I'll have to rely on a few of the (huh hmm) more senior members of the forums to comment. Chris? Both you and Dave were selling audio then, weren't you?

I recall in the late 1970's/early 1980's Sansui had some significant gear that was reportedly very good, and demo's a setup at one of our local stereo emporiums (in good old Speedy Creek, Sask.). They sold Sansui, Technics, Telefunken and Energy loudspeakers if you can believe that. Also in the late 1980's and early 1990's Sansui tried to revitalize their days of glory with the "Vintage" series of components which were very good sounding (from memory, I sold Sansui products at the time). More expensive than many of their contemporaries but superior sounding to much of the junk mass market stuff of the time.

I find the premise of the Lites quite interesting. Smaller (but still excellent) drivers in a smaller enclosure with he same level of performance as their larger brethren but with only the bottom end and ultimate loudness reduced?
As Chris stated, the creation of the enclosures is simply not as easy as scaling the enclosures down, the details regarding the development of flat packs are significant.

Glad to have stirred a few nice memories for some.
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Old 28th November 2016, 01:55 AM   #125
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Since cousin Stewie already strayed a bit off the original topic:
- Believe it or don't, I never actually heard a piece of Sansui gear back in the day except for one of their excellent FM tuners ( can't remember model number), but as I recall their reputation at the time of the Marantz/Superscope nadir was of outstanding performance and build quality from around the middle of the model line on up. I have a couple of buddies who are not wacko DIYers for whom the two receiver models cited are relished members of their harems.
- Speaking of Energy, I'd never hear a pair of those either, until just today. I spent a couple of hours at an undisclosed location in Sooke listening to a near mint condition pair of Model 22 Reference Connoisseur Edition. Considering these are at least 30yrs old, during which time the tweeter's ferrofluid damping is very likely to have dried out and need replenishment - which is apparently not all that difficult - these things are stupid good. Bass and into lower midrange perhaps not as crisply defined as latest drivers by the likes of SB Acoustics, SEAS - name your favorite flavour- but amazing extension from a single 8-ish inch in a slot vented box, and that tweeter-

Re the "lites", and the entire FH family, in the several years I've communicated with Dr Scott, I think it's been one of his pet peeves when the question us posed as to "can I scale that design to fit my favourite driver, or room constraints?" Often the answer would not pass forum decorum rules, but it's almost as if he was thinking of that with the FHs. The basic fold topolgy is virtually identical between the three, although dimensions of course have differences, and most certainly with the FH3 and Lites the basic laws of physics as apply to 3 -4" FR drivers aren't magically circumvented- high passing them in the lower mid-bass and adding competent woofers will yield huge improvement
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Old 28th November 2016, 07:18 AM   #126
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default sorry for the diversion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
Since cousin Stewie already strayed a bit off the original topic:
- Believe it or don't, I never actually heard a piece of Sansui gear back in the day except for one of their excellent FM tuners ( can't remember model number), but as I recall their reputation at the time of the Marantz/Superscope nadir was of outstanding performance and build quality from around the middle of the model line on up. I have a couple of buddies who are not wacko DIYers for whom the two receiver models cited are relished members of their harems.
They are big "ballsy" receivers that sound quite good (in a high current/high power way with reams of dampening factor) with excellent control of floppy woofers.

Quote:
- Speaking of Energy, I'd never hear a pair of those either, until just today. I spent a couple of hours at an undisclosed location in Sooke listening to a near mint condition pair of Model 22 Reference Connoisseur Edition. Considering these are at least 30yrs old, during which time the tweeter's ferrofluid damping is very likely to have dried out and need replenishment - which is apparently not all that difficult - these things are stupid good. Bass and into lower midrange perhaps not as crisply defined as latest drivers by the likes of SB Acoustics, SEAS - name your favorite flavour- but amazing extension from a single 8-ish inch in a slot vented box, and that tweeter-
Growing up, a friend bought a pair of these speaker and AFAIK he still has them. The tweeter is very special, and the sewn (and glued) woofer surround is something that I haven't seen n any other speakers ever. It is obvious that great care was taken building these drivers (API custom drivers). Try "straw stuffing" (as per Perkins) the port to tighten up the bass-midbass region.

Quote:
Re the "lites", and the entire FH family, in the several years I've communicated with Dr Scott, I think it's been one of his pet peeves when the question us posed as to "can I scale that design to fit my favourite driver, or room constraints?" Often the answer would not pass forum decorum rules, but it's almost as if he was thinking of that with the FHs. The basic fold topolgy is virtually identical between the three, although dimensions of course have differences, and most certainly with the FH3 and Lites the basic laws of physics as apply to 3 -4" FR drivers aren't magically circumvented- high passing them in the lower mid-bass and adding competent woofers will yield huge improvement
And yet small (4" or less) drivers have their appeal and can perform seemingly "miraculous" sound that can dispel a myth that the rules of Physics cannot be broken. Well these universal laws cannot be, but it is surprising what small drivers in a properly designed enclosure can do (using appropriate amplification). Think of the venerable LS3/5A and all of it's variants.Real, deep bass? NO but certainly quite a pleasing sound when driven with enough jam. Or the original and early series of the ProAc Tablettes. The MA CHR70 in Onken enclosures are a fine example of a loudspeaker punching way above it's weight class, as well as the Fonken enclosures for the Fostex FE108 and similar.
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Old 28th November 2016, 10:53 AM   #127
twocents is offline twocents  South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook View Post
but it is surprising what small drivers in a properly designed enclosure can do (using appropriate amplification)
As a matter of interest - what would "appropriate amplification" for FHL's with Fostex FF85WK drivers be?
I was thinking of an Amp Camp Amp (5/6W, Gain at 14) for my FHL's, but Chris thinks it might run out of steam.
Sorry if it is a stupid question.. I am trying to get the right gear without too much experimentation. Thanks.
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Old 28th November 2016, 05:27 PM   #128
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No such thing as a stupid question - but some of my answers, on the other hand.

I think a factor in the calculus of if / how soon the ACAs would run out of steam would be the room. While it's probably still my favorite Fostex driver for what it does very well - nearfield or as mid tweet in a 2-way crossed over between 200-300 or so - those pesky laws of physics do get in the way, and with a nominal sensitivity of 86.5dB and rated power handling of 5W, the 85 won't fill a big room at 40Hz
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Old 28th November 2016, 09:09 PM   #129
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default of FHL and 3" drivers....and suitable amplification....

diyRookie:
Quote:
As a matter of interest - what would "appropriate amplification" for FHL's with Fostex FF85WK drivers be?
I was thinking of an Amp Camp Amp (5/6W, Gain at 14) for my FHL's, but Chris thinks it might run out of steam.
Sorry if it is a stupid question.. I am trying to get the right gear without too much experimentation. Thanks.
As Chris states, the limit is how loud in a given room. Even if the drivers have good output at a relatively low frequency, the amount of linear excursion required in a small full range driver to create that lower frequency requires more power....assuming that the suspension is suitable as well as the thermal capabilities.

I've lived with 4" drivers in my listening room (not FHs) for quite a while, but they don't do deep bass. The amount of bass can be amazing, considering the driver size, but they don't compare to a well designed 8" driver in terms of bass (like the Demetri enclosures and the 8" hemp drivers). Chris' suggestion that the FF85K is suitable as an upper frequency driver in a 2-way system should be taken into consideration, or the addition of a woofer/subwoofer capable of going to say 400Hz (to allow at least an octave of overlap) makes sense.

now amplifiers: Fostex suggests that 10W/ch "music power" is the max, with a 5 W/ch amp (here I am assuming RMS) rated input as maximum. Pick your poison. I've used amps as little as a 1.4 W/ch SET and as much as 125 W.ch solid-state amplifiers driving FE127s. Again the limit is how low in frequency and how much output in dB is expected. In very small rooms (like a bedroom/home office) desk mounted FF85Ks in a tiny enclosure would be excellent. Anything that is class A and capable of at least 10 W/ch (peak) would be my suggestion. Others may have other opinions. I would follow Chris (and Dave's) recommendations without hesitation (and the ACA should be capable of that).
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Old 29th November 2016, 12:50 PM   #130
twocents is offline twocents  South Africa
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Thank you for all the feedback. It all makes sense and certainly helps me to make a more informed decision. In my case, our living room is quite small (about 15 x 15 feet max) and we will be close to the speakers, and we don't do loud.

So, my feeling is the FHL's will work just fine and I will start with the ACA amp for a few good reasons. That might give me a "valid" reason to upgrade later to another amp. The wife needs reasons - I will keep on building just for fun. Can't wait.
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