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Old 27th April 2015, 12:16 AM   #11
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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I tried 2nd order symmetric and it leaves a big hole at the XO point. Should I move xo points around so asymmetric? I tried moving LR4 to 350Hz and it actually seems smoother - so will have a listen there for a while. MiniDSP makea all this very easy to try.
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Old 27th April 2015, 12:29 AM   #12
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
I tried 2nd order symmetric and it leaves a big hole at the XO point. Should I move xo points around so asymmetric? I tried moving LR4 to 350Hz and it actually seems smoother - so will have a listen there for a while. MiniDSP makea all this very easy to try.
That's normal for a 2nd order filter you have to invert the polarity of one of the drivers for them to sum correctly.
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Old 27th April 2015, 12:44 AM   #13
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
That's normal for a 2nd order filter you have to invert the polarity of one of the drivers for them to sum correctly.
Thanks for the tip - I will give it a try.
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Old 27th April 2015, 02:08 AM   #14
mor2bz is offline mor2bz  United States
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http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.pdf

see pg. 42
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Old 27th April 2015, 11:23 AM   #15
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Nice work! Could you show the step response? If I were a rich man I'd order 50x 10F for obvious reasons .
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Old 27th April 2015, 12:42 PM   #16
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Default LR2 XO @350Hz and new sound clips

Ok, I implemented the Linkwitz-Riley -12dB/oct (LR2) XO at 350Hz, flipped the polarity of the 10F as suggested by 5th Element and others. The sound is even better now I think. Very cohesive and engaging sounding. One of the best speakers I have heard (up there with the Trynergy and my reference all horn loaded system). The quality of the bass is really surprisingly good for such a simple sealed alignment. I can imagine it would sound even better in a wooden box. The clarity and sharpness of the highs is also really remarkable. Listen to the guitar in the SRV clip E.

Here are the new measurements...

SPL vs Freq for the LR2 XO @350Hz:

Click the image to open in full size.

Harmonic Distortion:

Click the image to open in full size.

Freq response (4ms gate and 1/48th oct smoothing) in detail (2dB/major div) with phase:

Click the image to open in full size.

Impulse response:

Click the image to open in full size.

Group delay (still greater than I expected with the new LR2):

Click the image to open in full size.

I did not get Wesayso's request for Step function until after I was done gathering data and left the lab for the day.

Sound clips include two from the Subjective Blind Comparo thread, and the old Spanish Harlem standard. Have a listen, I hope that at 320kbps mp3, you still appreciate the quality of the sound. I am listening to the raw 96kHz .wav file and it sounds superb - some of the best I have heard.
Attached Images
File Type: png 10f-rs225-fast-lr2-350hz-xo.png (80.8 KB, 15722 views)
File Type: png 10f-rs225-fast-lr2-350hz-hd.png (152.8 KB, 4055 views)
File Type: png 10f-rs225-fast-lr2-350hz-phase.png (97.3 KB, 4036 views)
File Type: png 10f-rs225-fast-lr2-350hz-ir.png (46.5 KB, 3948 views)
File Type: png 10f-rs225-fast-lr2-350hz-gd.png (79.1 KB, 3954 views)
Attached Files
File Type: asc 10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-clip-A.asc (1.72 MB, 198 views)
File Type: asc 10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-clip-B.asc (1.74 MB, 90 views)
File Type: asc 10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-clip-C.asc (1.72 MB, 94 views)
File Type: asc 10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-clip-D.asc (1.70 MB, 79 views)
File Type: asc 10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-clip-E.asc (1.74 MB, 119 views)

Last edited by xrk971; 27th April 2015 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 27th April 2015, 04:40 PM   #17
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post

..........Group delay (still greater than I expected with the new LR2):


Click the image to open in full size.

..........
Seems not so bad at all when added all system filters upon each other group delay ends up pretty close to the measured (see at 40Hz point both show 15mS).

Filters used for test was:
1. Acoustic high pass filter at 52Hz 2.order BW to model sealed box.
2. Electric linkwitz transform at 52Hz BW down to BW at 30Hz.
3. Electric LR 2.order at 350Hz XO filter.
4. Acoustic hole system band pass in a high pass 4.order at 27Hz and a low pass 4.order at 19kHz.

DSP setup for filters testing is same as explained #10.

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Images
File Type: png GD3.png (36.1 KB, 3679 views)

Last edited by BYRTT; 27th April 2015 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 27th April 2015, 04:58 PM   #18
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Thanks for the excellent analysis Byrtt! So what do I need to do to get GD as low as possible? What if I get rid of system high pass filter that is supposed to prevent woofer over excursion? My amp doesn't have enough volts to cause that anyway (19v laptop brick probably barely hits xmax). Go to 1st order XO? Less agressive LT to only 38Hz vs 30Hz? But truth be told, the 15ms doesn't sound so bad to my ears - I have not optimized for time alignment yet - maybe there is something to be gained there?

Last edited by xrk971; 27th April 2015 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 27th April 2015, 05:35 PM   #19
irribeo is offline irribeo  Netherlands
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Considering it is a recorded playback I think E sound very good. There are some differences listening here with headphones, funniest one is clearer treble detail for recorded playback versus original when listening to drum at start of Eclip , bass is a little tighter original Maybe my original is different (mine is 9:14 lenght StevieRay/Reed on DifferentWaves sample CD for Beosystem2500)
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Old 27th April 2015, 06:22 PM   #20
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Irrebeo,
Also, don't forget I am recording in stereo the mono right channel (only) of a stereo recording. So the content from left speaker is missing. Interesting that treble in recording was higher - the response seems to fall off above 16kHz - and is measurably flat. My bass is off by 15ms at 40Hz as Byrtt showed and my measurement confirms. Looks like I need to get rid of woofer protection HPF, maybe try 1st order XO even? Get LT to be not as aggressive? The LT as it is, gives solid 35Hz punch so really makes a difference on some recordings.

Thanks for the feedback.
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