I apologise if this has been covered but I am new to speaker building and had a couple basic questions. I am looking at a B80 build due to cost. This would be my first build, so I'm finding it a little more complicated to follow than just buying a kit. That said, go big or go home..
I have seen at least one design using a sports cone, it seems it would save some time. What size is recommended? I see the initial post mentions 1.1L for the dagger. A perfect 9" cone with 5" base is just shy of a liter if my math isn't off, so I would think a regular 9" sports cone might be approximately close enough (since these are all essentially slightly larger comes truncated rather than a sharp point)? Does it require any reinforcement or is stuffing it sufficient? Would it make sense to wrap in dynamat or similar?
For the cross overs, does resistance being out by a tenth or so (eg 2.4 vs 2.3 ohm) make significant difference to the sound?
Again I apologise if we this is a speaker building 101 and has been covered previously.
I have seen at least one design using a sports cone, it seems it would save some time. What size is recommended? I see the initial post mentions 1.1L for the dagger. A perfect 9" cone with 5" base is just shy of a liter if my math isn't off, so I would think a regular 9" sports cone might be approximately close enough (since these are all essentially slightly larger comes truncated rather than a sharp point)? Does it require any reinforcement or is stuffing it sufficient? Would it make sense to wrap in dynamat or similar?
For the cross overs, does resistance being out by a tenth or so (eg 2.4 vs 2.3 ohm) make significant difference to the sound?
Again I apologise if we this is a speaker building 101 and has been covered previously.
It seems a 9in cone can work and 11in one can be supported with a hole on the divider panel. I would wrap it with autosound butyl damping sheets to reduce ringing. It needs to be airtight vs main chamber. Stuffed progressively denser towards tip. Mouth needs to fit the driver basket plus some breathing room. Add felt or melamine foam on walls near first 2-3in of cone opening. 0.1R resistance makes no difference - but adjust R1 to taste if you wish. Some people like more brightness. This speaker is voiced to the Harman profile with a slight right tilt down on the highs.
Hi Xrk,
RE RS 225-8, are you using the 4 ohm version, I see that the 8 ohm version is rated at 86 db or so. Been playing around with Faital 3fe22 & this WaW design of yours has got me thinking as the 3fe22 has higher sensitivity it would be great to have a woofer close to like 89-90 db. Your thoughts & advice pls.
Thks
RE RS 225-8, are you using the 4 ohm version, I see that the 8 ohm version is rated at 86 db or so. Been playing around with Faital 3fe22 & this WaW design of yours has got me thinking as the 3fe22 has higher sensitivity it would be great to have a woofer close to like 89-90 db. Your thoughts & advice pls.
Thks
I use the 8ohm version. Although a XO was designed for 4ohm version at someone’s request by scaling (2mH vs 4mH for the low pass, etc.). I have not personally verified it works to my standards. If you are looking for more sensitivity, it would seem like 91dB at 2.83v is better, but I think that’s 2w (2.83v into 4ohms) vs 1w (2.83v into 8ohms). You will also need a 4ohm capable amp. Amp power is cheap - a 50w or 75w amp is plenty for this speaker.
But if you have a 4ohm amp with limited output (12v battery powered for example), the 4ohm version may be a good option. Thanks
But if you have a 4ohm amp with limited output (12v battery powered for example), the 4ohm version may be a good option. Thanks
FilAudio,
Welcome to the build party!
I recently finished my build, and used 9" sports cones for that. I actually cut 1.5" off the narrow end of the cones, so that I did not have to make a hole in the divider panel. Even after cutting off the small piece, the volume was around a liter.
And I used a Visaton B80 as the mid-tweeter - probably the first xrk971 RS225 FAST TL build with the B80.
Here you go with a couple of pics.
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I had this idea of doing a TABAQ with a woofer, and using a FR along the line a long time ago.
X beat me to it when he found his perfect combination of drivers.
Since getting the RS225 is kinda hard for me, I have been looking at other drivers, mainly SBA. I really like their racetrack driver, as it keeps the line clean.
I've been using XSim to simulate XOs but today, I decided to try on a more hands on approach.
Enter the miniDSP 2x4HD. And started to play with some curves.
Ultimately, I should say, I want this to be a passive design.
So, started with something easy, 1st order, LP@400Hz - HP@500Hz.
I got this.
So, phase is wrong using two simple 1st order, and yep, if I invert the FR, I get them to sum up, but way too much
Changing my mind, I figured I coud mix curves, so tried a few things and ended up with a 1st order LP@200 and a 2nd order HP@800. sounds weird but with the FR inverted, they sum up ok.
The B80 has a hump at 1800Hz, and I really don't like that, so adding a little notch cleans it up.
But, I was hoping to work with the drivers responses instead of adding extra notches, so, I went back to 1st order and tried to conceal two bumps, one from the woofer and one from the FR.
Ended with the extreme LP@200 and HP@3,000 ! Both 1st order.
It does look good while looking at the FR, but it crosses at 1,100Hz, which is a big no-no for many people, being in that sensitive hearing range.
Since they are 1st order and do not have big phase inversions around that 1;1kHz, I don't really hear anything troubling though, when playing some music, in mono... wondering if playing a stereo setup would make it worse.
Here's what it looks:
I guess I still have work to do.
At least, it was fun not just clicking things in XSim, but the more hands on miniDSP approach was kinda refreshing and turned boredom into something fun.
X beat me to it when he found his perfect combination of drivers.
Since getting the RS225 is kinda hard for me, I have been looking at other drivers, mainly SBA. I really like their racetrack driver, as it keeps the line clean.
I've been using XSim to simulate XOs but today, I decided to try on a more hands on approach.
Enter the miniDSP 2x4HD. And started to play with some curves.
Ultimately, I should say, I want this to be a passive design.
So, started with something easy, 1st order, LP@400Hz - HP@500Hz.
I got this.
So, phase is wrong using two simple 1st order, and yep, if I invert the FR, I get them to sum up, but way too much
Changing my mind, I figured I coud mix curves, so tried a few things and ended up with a 1st order LP@200 and a 2nd order HP@800. sounds weird but with the FR inverted, they sum up ok.
The B80 has a hump at 1800Hz, and I really don't like that, so adding a little notch cleans it up.
But, I was hoping to work with the drivers responses instead of adding extra notches, so, I went back to 1st order and tried to conceal two bumps, one from the woofer and one from the FR.
Ended with the extreme LP@200 and HP@3,000 ! Both 1st order.
It does look good while looking at the FR, but it crosses at 1,100Hz, which is a big no-no for many people, being in that sensitive hearing range.
Since they are 1st order and do not have big phase inversions around that 1;1kHz, I don't really hear anything troubling though, when playing some music, in mono... wondering if playing a stereo setup would make it worse.
Here's what it looks:
I guess I still have work to do.
At least, it was fun not just clicking things in XSim, but the more hands on miniDSP approach was kinda refreshing and turned boredom into something fun.
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Hi Perceval,
Try adding time delay to get the acoustic centers matched. You can check what this needs to be by measuring all three combos (W, T, W+T) and adjusting delay to the T (or full range) until the interferogram predicted in Xsim matches the measured W+T. This is necessary for any Xsim crossover simulation in any event. In miniDSP, simply add delay to simulate physical off set of the drivers. Tweeter will need to move back usually at least 3in or more. That should get the phase to sum flat.
Try adding time delay to get the acoustic centers matched. You can check what this needs to be by measuring all three combos (W, T, W+T) and adjusting delay to the T (or full range) until the interferogram predicted in Xsim matches the measured W+T. This is necessary for any Xsim crossover simulation in any event. In miniDSP, simply add delay to simulate physical off set of the drivers. Tweeter will need to move back usually at least 3in or more. That should get the phase to sum flat.
I tried to add a bit of delay by angling the tower backwards, a bit like a Thiel baffle. Also, the woofer is at ear level, and the FR is above my head, when sitting on the couch.
But, since the woofer is so close to the FR, I guess the FR is not that far away back, especially considering the sizing difference between the two drivers.
Will need to sim how lowering the woofer on the line changes the output.
But, since the woofer is so close to the FR, I guess the FR is not that far away back, especially considering the sizing difference between the two drivers.
Will need to sim how lowering the woofer on the line changes the output.
uncola,
If you are referring to my build, thank you for the kind words. However, I did not apply the veneer - the boards I bought are sold as "veneer board" and comes with the veneer already applied by the manufacturer. I have found this to be more stable in our hot and humid climate, and less work too!
Sorry to hear about the DAC - what are you planning to get now?
The tests are with DSP, but I want this to be passive.
If I put the woofer on top, then the FR is at ear level with the height of the enclosure. Placing the woofer below puts the FR above ear level, the inverted version of your transient perfect placement.
miniDSP can from 0, in 0.1 increment.
I time align the drivers when I put a 2.2ms delay... which is weird as the mic is at woofer level, so the path to the FR is longer, but it doesn't happen in the measurements.
And I used a Visaton B80 as the mid-tweeter - probably the first xrk971 RS225 FAST TL build with the B80.
Hi zman,
I tried to do a search in this thread about the B80, but I think the search function is broken, and it says no find!
May I ask which XO you used with the B80? I'm trying not to have a small peak between 1-2kHz but it is giving me problems...
perceval,
Using the XO in this post:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...5-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-234.html#post6139160
Only change is 3 ohm resistor for R1.
Using the XO in this post:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...5-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-234.html#post6139160
Only change is 3 ohm resistor for R1.
Had a quick go, tried the B80 and RS225 XO as mentioned, but it was very wobbly.
Decided to keep the B80 almost as is (had no need for the Nobel there), and went 2nd order for the SBA 5x8.
The wiggles in the impedance is the lack of bracing and vibration from the XPS enclosure, which was done rather quickly as a test. Should clean out just fine with a real enclosure.
Decided to keep the B80 almost as is (had no need for the Nobel there), and went 2nd order for the SBA 5x8.
The wiggles in the impedance is the lack of bracing and vibration from the XPS enclosure, which was done rather quickly as a test. Should clean out just fine with a real enclosure.
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If the search function returns this message:
1. Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.
Then there is actually nothing wrong with it! The search function cannot search for terms or words with 3 characters or less. It's always been like that and it is very annoying and frustrating since there are sooo many 3 character terms on this forum one would like to search for at times.