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10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor
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Old 20th August 2018, 08:02 PM   #1261
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Do you have a DATS or other means to measure the mH of those inductors? Are they labeled as such from manufacturer? One other thing - are you sure you only have one speaker on/connected at a time during measurement? Ambient sound from second speaker can really mess things up if forget to disconnect.
Thanks for concerns and your response.
as soon as i saw the behavior in xsim I tried to find a way to measure the inductors but it is not possible since I do not have the equipment (including DATS), they are bought from partsexpress, manufactured by Jantzen and are labeled 2.5mH, here s the link : Jantzen Audio 2.5mH...
and yes the other speaker was disconnected the whole time, each driver connected to amp separately for driver measurements.
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Old 21st August 2018, 12:38 AM   #1262
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Well if it came from PE and Jantzen it’s probably correct. Are you sure you don’t have any other audio software running in the background? Once I had a SRS audio running in background applying dynamic EQ bass boost - which gave strange frequency response and high distortion. Similar thing happened with Jriver running in background as a pass-through sound card DSP processor - while I acquired sweeps with REW. These things can be disabled if you are aware of them and turn them off.

Try a new computer that has all junk bloat ware stripped off.
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Old 21st August 2018, 06:11 AM   #1263
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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Hi Aatto if 10F is also ported you at a level of 4th order roll off at lows plus then add baffle step loss and a electrical high pass capacitor will add somewhere close to two more orders ?


For info pages back i simulated 10F baffle step and difracton for situation and it shows relative problems at about 2,5kHz, the two lower traces below shows 10F baffle step and difraction with a sharp edge verse 3 inch radius round over, the two upper ones shows 10F factory sheet response plus current baffle times factory response:

10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor-6000-png
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File Type: png 6000.png (63.2 KB, 156 views)
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Old 21st August 2018, 06:13 PM   #1264
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Hi Byrtt
So I m dealing with baffle diffraction ?
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Old 21st August 2018, 07:46 PM   #1265
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Possibly cause of that 1.5khz dip - can be resolved by lateral offset of the midtweeter Sometimes. My speaker had the offset on the XPS box and then I got rid of it on the Baltic birch ply box, but did not notice such a deep dip.

I still don’t know what’s going on with why your drivers are not falling off gradually at -6dB/octave from theoretical XO point. Could be that you have an air leak in your dagger rear chamber?
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Old 21st August 2018, 08:39 PM   #1266
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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It is very much possible to have a leak in the chamber. what causing the woofer not to roll off then ? it may sound stupid but how much damping can effect that ?
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Old 21st August 2018, 09:17 PM   #1267
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatto View Post
Hi Byrtt
So I m dealing with baffle diffraction ?
Not sure its only responsible reason but what you see in a baffle simulation had been trustfull data for years into real world scenarios, should you ever change your enclosure for 10F suggest use some simulation before its position is locked down and if you shoot for a reference speaker suggest also use as big round overs as possible because it pays back as you can see in previous post (green trace), it is said difraction is very sensible for our ears and a non linear distortion that is worst at high levels, in my view its good enough you have 10F vertical centered because that ensure ripple distortion is same on speakers left verse right side and ripple could to some point be EQed away if wanted, room reflections whether they left or right sided will then start up being coherent in response, if one offset 10F on vertical axis simulation will show much better performance but only on axis because now we get the problem that off axis left verse right side are not coherent anymore, a quick guess is your high ripple problem is because there is close to same distance out to three edges, so a move of its position a little up or down would have helped. Should you have some round pipe isolation laying around and the curiosity maybe try tape it on the three closest edges and measure again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Possibly cause of that 1.5khz dip - can be resolved by lateral offset of the midtweeter Sometimes. My speaker had the offset on the XPS box and then I got rid of it on the Baltic birch ply box, but did not notice such a deep dip...
Hi X, Aatoo's baffle (see below) is the one that was simulated and different than yours, even being in vertical center its probably not many centimeters up or down that would enhance it to less ripple as for your build and experience.
Attached Images
File Type: png 6000.PNG (607.3 KB, 124 views)

Last edited by BYRTT; 21st August 2018 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 02:50 AM   #1268
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BYRTT View Post
Not sure its only responsible reason but what you see in a baffle simulation had been trustfull data for years into real world scenarios, should you ever change your enclosure for 10F suggest use some simulation before its position is locked down and if you shoot for a reference speaker suggest also use as big round overs as possible because it pays back as you can see in previous post (green trace), it is said difraction is very sensible for our ears and a non linear distortion that is worst at high levels, in my view its good enough you have 10F vertical centered because that ensure ripple distortion is same on speakers left verse right side and ripple could to some point be EQed away if wanted, room reflections whether they left or right sided will then start up being coherent in response, if one offset 10F on vertical axis simulation will show much better performance but only on axis because now we get the problem that off axis left verse right side are not coherent anymore, a quick guess is your high ripple problem is because there is close to same distance out to three edges, so a move of its position a little up or down would have helped. Should you have some round pipe isolation laying around and the curiosity maybe try tape it on the three closest edges and measure again.



Hi X, Aatoo's baffle (see below) is the one that was simulated and different than yours, even being in vertical center its probably not many centimeters up or down that would enhance it to less ripple as for your build and experience.

Thanks BYRTT for very well explained reply.
I will find some isolation or something to try to test if it helps.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 03:02 AM   #1269
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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I moved the speaker to the center of my largest room ( still tiny !) place it diagonally and placed the mic 60cm from the baffle and the results are the same. still have the dip, floor reflections changed a little, but that is not important.
I disassembled the XO and measured each driver respond with and without the associated crossover part.
I used one channel of the amp to feed the driver and there were no other software or dsp or anything interfering with signal.
I also tried the R2 and R3+C1 zobel as well.
Each measurement is 4 sweeps 10 to 22k and also did the 6 cycle thingy as well.
I m not sure if the impedance curve has that much impact on the rolling offs, but clearly this crossover does not act like any of simulated ones.
Edit: sorry for rotated pix, not sure what happened.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 10F All.jpg (131.1 KB, 107 views)
File Type: jpg SBA All.jpg (130.6 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg SBA+10F Crossed C1R3.jpg (121.9 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg SBA+10F Crossed no C1R3.jpg (120.7 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg SBA+10F Crossed.jpg (118.8 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3308.jpg (643.6 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3309.jpg (596.9 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3310.jpg (620.7 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3311.jpg (618.7 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3312.jpg (718.7 KB, 22 views)
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Last edited by Aatto; 22nd August 2018 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 04:19 AM   #1270
perceval is offline perceval  Taiwan
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The sba with inductor looks right to me, but the 10f with cap is weird, and not what it should be.

Got any other caps laying around you could try?

Also, I would do a check and compare the 10F curves with X's own curves versus yours.

Here's X's curves.... The sba is reasonable, but your 10F is way off...

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by perceval; 22nd August 2018 at 04:23 AM.
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