Steve I agree. I gave up on conventional cabinet speakers when I bought a pair of Stax heaphones from a colleague at work, the old box style 'Earspeaker". I spent an evening listening to them, after which I just had to build an ESL. The Celestion 600's I owned just sounded lifeless and dull after that experience. I contacted Sanders for advice after reading about his build in the Old Colony Speaker Builder magazine and he is a super nice guy and sent me a floppy disc of his soon to be published book. So I built a Sanders ESL with KEF B139 powered bass cabinets and was happy for years. I built four versions and I was convinced ESL's were the best you could get. I am now older and wiser.
The impact you get from a DML's on drums is amazing, just like sitting in front of the drum kit. And the delicacy is there as well. I keep on hearing low level detail I never heard before and that's using the same MQA recording on both ESL and DML. Seriously impressive.
But for me its the soundstage that's the best part. I have never had the diffused effect a lot of people comment on. I get the same holographic effect you get from an ESL but its now heard everywhere, not just in the classic ESL 'sweet spot' and it is somehow more solid. I can walk past the panels and into the soundstage, which is an astonishing experience and something I have never heard before from any other speaker type.
Now I need to get some of the bosses list done, its a Sunday after all : )
Burnt
The impact you get from a DML's on drums is amazing, just like sitting in front of the drum kit. And the delicacy is there as well. I keep on hearing low level detail I never heard before and that's using the same MQA recording on both ESL and DML. Seriously impressive.
But for me its the soundstage that's the best part. I have never had the diffused effect a lot of people comment on. I get the same holographic effect you get from an ESL but its now heard everywhere, not just in the classic ESL 'sweet spot' and it is somehow more solid. I can walk past the panels and into the soundstage, which is an astonishing experience and something I have never heard before from any other speaker type.
Now I need to get some of the bosses list done, its a Sunday after all : )
Burnt
Burntcoil.
I too have been ordered out into the garden by the boss,every day of the lockdown in fact! And I don't even like gardening!
So I'll have to keep it short,you asked about my ply panels,do you mean my rigid panels? ,it's probably on here somewhere,I could do a recording using the big or small or both ,it's a good way of getting an idea of how they sound without going through the agro of building them first!
Although they are practically full range 40hz to 20k on normal program material ,as with all panels I would keep very heavy low frequencies well away especially if you only have 10watt exciters!
The painter's picture frame isn't a bad full range panel in the same 40hz to20k range for the small size I made(it's basically a small Ply panel suspended on a canvas),I'm not sure how large you could make them before it all falls apart.
If you are not careful you could end up like me with a house full of different panels,just because you can!
Oops must go,I can hear the call of the wild!
Steve
I too have been ordered out into the garden by the boss,every day of the lockdown in fact! And I don't even like gardening!
So I'll have to keep it short,you asked about my ply panels,do you mean my rigid panels? ,it's probably on here somewhere,I could do a recording using the big or small or both ,it's a good way of getting an idea of how they sound without going through the agro of building them first!
Although they are practically full range 40hz to 20k on normal program material ,as with all panels I would keep very heavy low frequencies well away especially if you only have 10watt exciters!
The painter's picture frame isn't a bad full range panel in the same 40hz to20k range for the small size I made(it's basically a small Ply panel suspended on a canvas),I'm not sure how large you could make them before it all falls apart.
If you are not careful you could end up like me with a house full of different panels,just because you can!
Oops must go,I can hear the call of the wild!
Steve
I've never heard electrostats. How would you describe the advantage of DML over electrostat?
(edit, sorry I see you already explained it above in a post.)
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No audio advantage to a bass DML because they don't help room modes. DMLs supply advantage above Schroeder where ray acoustics dominate.
For bass frequencies it's better to follow the advice of Earl Geddes and Todd Welti/Harman.
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Interesting product: Muzo | Celestial Tribe Official Site
also with a billionsound exciter, in curious about the sticky pad they developed to reposition it, for testing purposes.
Have anyone else heard of this?
edit: apprently they did a kickstarter Muzo - Your Personal Zone Creator with Noise Blocking Tech. by Celestial Tribe — Kickstarter where they sold it as a noise canceling device, it seems that idea didn't work out as hoped and now they just sell it as a "sound devide" lol!
also with a billionsound exciter, in curious about the sticky pad they developed to reposition it, for testing purposes.
Have anyone else heard of this?
edit: apprently they did a kickstarter Muzo - Your Personal Zone Creator with Noise Blocking Tech. by Celestial Tribe — Kickstarter where they sold it as a noise canceling device, it seems that idea didn't work out as hoped and now they just sell it as a "sound devide" lol!
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You might be interested in the JMC Soundboard design for thoughts in that direction http://http://www.jmclutherie.com/en/Soundboards[/URL
Ah, the call that cannot be denied.
I did not express myself clearly which happens a lot these days. I am interested in the material specification on the ply panel that had a peaked response in the HF so I can try it out. Just the wood type, ply number, grade and the thickness plus any treatment you applied.
Have been striming so share the pain!
Cheers
Burnt
Lathams in the UK stock very thin Finnish Birch Ply.
From their website
Birch Throughout – II/III
EN636-2 EN314-2 : PEFC Certified
Size & Thicknesses:
1220 x 1220
0.4mm / 0.8mm / 1.2mm / 1.5mm* / 2mm
* Also available in 1525 x 1525
You should be able to source it locally as Lathams import all their ply from Europe, or 'the Continent" as are now suppose to call it.
Burnt
The exciter is now on a poplar ply of 21 x 30 cm x 3 mm and this is glued on the corrugated cb panel. On the poplar some two dozen holes* of 5 mm drilled around the exciter and on the panel upper corners* there are two left overs of round cardboard (from adhesive tape) glued. *This I made +/- upon Spedge's advice. The sound has now more details and clarity but in this criteria is still far away from the honeycomb panel. For me it is quite good balanced and piano or acoustic bass is better balanced and has some body. The usable frequency band looks now not bad.
Measured from 10 inches away (panel / 20' above floor)
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*explanations
probably I'm better to write about my thoughts than leading to a misunderstanding. The feedback of Spedge about some issues of the frequency band measured on my honeycomb panel I've understood, that the issue in high frequency (5.6 kHz) could be solved with a paper (Spedge's technique) and the issue in low frequency could be solved with an AA-battery e.g. at an upper corner of the panel. So I've thought about frequencies, interferences, resonances a.o. To 'decouple' the exciter from interferences and resonances crossing the panel and disturbing the exciter I did the holes in the poplar around the exciter. At the corners I had the same in mind but for simplicity have glued there the round cardboard leftovers. If my thoughts would be right I would not claim. The frequency band on my recent post shows a good result for me.
Eric
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Pic
Burntcoil.
Hi ,the first picture is of the ply panel,the second pic is the 3mm hardboard at about 1m.
The low end goes all the way down to 20hz on both panels ,with the upper peak higher on the hardboard ?
No weights or paper used,just the basic panel.
Might measure the 3x2ft and do a recording ,I can play louder as the panel is glued as well as screwed together solidly.
100ohms.
Can't say I'm not a little confused,it could be the drink I had earlier,you glued a ply panel on the cardboard panel and drilled 5mm holes around the exciter and stuck cardboard rings near the top corners .
It's all part of the learning curve.
Steve
Burntcoil.
Hi ,the first picture is of the ply panel,the second pic is the 3mm hardboard at about 1m.
The low end goes all the way down to 20hz on both panels ,with the upper peak higher on the hardboard ?
No weights or paper used,just the basic panel.
Might measure the 3x2ft and do a recording ,I can play louder as the panel is glued as well as screwed together solidly.
100ohms.
Can't say I'm not a little confused,it could be the drink I had earlier,you glued a ply panel on the cardboard panel and drilled 5mm holes around the exciter and stuck cardboard rings near the top corners .
It's all part of the learning curve.
Steve
