Hi all,
This is my first time posting on this forum - people are very helpful here, and I'm hoping to get some advice on a project I'm planning, and I'm hoping to seriously get into diy audio as a hobby.
I'd like to use my old Onkyo amplifier in my living+kitchen area (the two are connected). The shape of the room is a rectangle about 35 feet by 16 feet. I'd like to build two speakers that I can position at one end of the space, which will hopefully fill the space with sound.
The amplifier is the following: Onkyo TX-SV515PRO Manual - Audio Video Control Tuner Amplifier - HiFi Engine
The system will be exclusively for music listening. I need suggestions for a speaker build that would be suitable to use with it. I've never built a speaker before, but I'm a competent woodworker, so building complex cases is not a problem.
Here are my inclinations, based on the little reading I've done, but I'm prepared to be talked out of any of them!
1. Stereo sound, won't use the center and rear outputs of the amp.
2. Single driver speaker (first build, best keep it simple!)
3. A full-range driver in a transmission line box sounds appealing, from what I read.
4. I'd like the cost of each driver to be at most $100. (When I get better, I'll try more expensive drivers)
5. I'd like to get as "audiophile" a sound as possible within these constraints
Looking forward to some great ideas. Oh yeah, and in case it helps, I live in the US, in the Lehigh Valley, in Pennsylvania.
Have a great day, folks!
This is my first time posting on this forum - people are very helpful here, and I'm hoping to get some advice on a project I'm planning, and I'm hoping to seriously get into diy audio as a hobby.
I'd like to use my old Onkyo amplifier in my living+kitchen area (the two are connected). The shape of the room is a rectangle about 35 feet by 16 feet. I'd like to build two speakers that I can position at one end of the space, which will hopefully fill the space with sound.
The amplifier is the following: Onkyo TX-SV515PRO Manual - Audio Video Control Tuner Amplifier - HiFi Engine
The system will be exclusively for music listening. I need suggestions for a speaker build that would be suitable to use with it. I've never built a speaker before, but I'm a competent woodworker, so building complex cases is not a problem.
Here are my inclinations, based on the little reading I've done, but I'm prepared to be talked out of any of them!
1. Stereo sound, won't use the center and rear outputs of the amp.
2. Single driver speaker (first build, best keep it simple!)
3. A full-range driver in a transmission line box sounds appealing, from what I read.
4. I'd like the cost of each driver to be at most $100. (When I get better, I'll try more expensive drivers)
5. I'd like to get as "audiophile" a sound as possible within these constraints
Looking forward to some great ideas. Oh yeah, and in case it helps, I live in the US, in the Lehigh Valley, in Pennsylvania.
Have a great day, folks!
2. Single driver speaker (first build, best keep it simple!)
4. I'd like the cost of each driver to be at most $100. (When I get better, I'll try more expensive drivers)
5. I'd like to get as "audiophile" a sound as possible within these constraints
based on those criterion my 1st suggestion would be Alpair 7.x.
There are TLs, and Horns, and bookshelves for it.
dave
Alpair 7.3
Thanks, Dave!
These seem to be very nice speakers for the application, judging from the specs.
And I had a look at your sites - lots of great information there, thanks!
Now on to choosing a cabinet. The Frugel-Horn MK3 seems to be not too hard to make and promises good performance.
I'm also toying with the idea of going through the calculations and designing some kind of folded TL box myself.
All suggestions are welcome!
Thanks, Dave!
These seem to be very nice speakers for the application, judging from the specs.
And I had a look at your sites - lots of great information there, thanks!
Now on to choosing a cabinet. The Frugel-Horn MK3 seems to be not too hard to make and promises good performance.
I'm also toying with the idea of going through the calculations and designing some kind of folded TL box myself.
All suggestions are welcome!
FH3 is a very nice performer, and if you're not uncomfortable with the curved sides, not a particularly complicated build. Another very simple type would be an MLTL - of which there are several proven designs for - Pensils by Scott, and Bob Brines' - for Alpairs, & Fostex in the nominal 4-6" size range.
A quick browse on-line for the owner's manual suggests the Onkyo doesn't have LFE / subwoofer outputs that are now common, and while I'm a fan of the Alpair7, if this system will be used for videos / movies in an open floor space of 560ft^2,you might want consider a larger driver - either of the 10s or Fostex FF165WK would be on my short list.
Of course, there will be more more advice forthcoming - careful what you wish for
A quick browse on-line for the owner's manual suggests the Onkyo doesn't have LFE / subwoofer outputs that are now common, and while I'm a fan of the Alpair7, if this system will be used for videos / movies in an open floor space of 560ft^2,you might want consider a larger driver - either of the 10s or Fostex FF165WK would be on my short list.
Of course, there will be more more advice forthcoming - careful what you wish for
Hi,
Its a big space, and hard to fill with an FR, none of which BTW
will be able to handle 80W per channel at full tilt in the bass.
Personally I wouldn't mess around and I'd build this :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
It is the sort of speaker you need IMO, and the best
IMO of a very limited choice of suitable DIY designs.
For sure IMO its a great bang for buck design, and
make no mistake, its a genuinely hifi loudspeaker.
Unlikely to dissapoint in any sense.
rgds, sreten.
Being a big space it wil have low room modes,
35 to 16 is not a bad ratio for smooth low bass,
nevertheless, if the speakers go low enough,
the room modes will reinforce the low bass.
Its a big space, and hard to fill with an FR, none of which BTW
will be able to handle 80W per channel at full tilt in the bass.
Personally I wouldn't mess around and I'd build this :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
It is the sort of speaker you need IMO, and the best
IMO of a very limited choice of suitable DIY designs.
For sure IMO its a great bang for buck design, and
make no mistake, its a genuinely hifi loudspeaker.
Unlikely to dissapoint in any sense.
rgds, sreten.
Being a big space it wil have low room modes,
35 to 16 is not a bad ratio for smooth low bass,
nevertheless, if the speakers go low enough,
the room modes will reinforce the low bass.
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My space is larger and i don't have issues.
Who cares if it handles 80 w, as long as it plays loud enuff... 80 w just gives more headroom.Safer to have too much power than too little.
dave
Hi,
Self justification isn't pragmatic advice, it is simply bias.
rgds, sreten.
Bias is riddled with assumptions and complications. It
is hardly ever right about anything, being self-serving.
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If OP really wants to stay with a single FR unit and can raise the budget for the drivers to $110/unit, then he can also consider the FH-XL; very similar layout to that of the FH Mk3, but bigger and will go louder and deeper. For a really simple build (but beware, big speaker) the BiB design also comes to mind - especially if you have corners. For big BLH, Scott's Woden Megalith horns also can be an option...
However, if one is heavily into rock and metal genres, then a 2 way or multi-way system is likely to be much more satisfactory. Paul Carmody's Tarkus that Sreten had linked earlier is a good design, and in the US the drivers and parts will cost ~$360 IIRC.
Small FR driver XO'd with woofers or subs is another workable option, as mentioned by Bill poster.
However, if one is heavily into rock and metal genres, then a 2 way or multi-way system is likely to be much more satisfactory. Paul Carmody's Tarkus that Sreten had linked earlier is a good design, and in the US the drivers and parts will cost ~$360 IIRC.
Small FR driver XO'd with woofers or subs is another workable option, as mentioned by Bill poster.
Great driver, but long since out of production so could be hard to source these days.
However, the same manufacturer has several other excellent drivers already mentioned, plus the silly good bargain CHN70 $27 USD ea + shipping (can't be much on that sized a package) and taxes
indeed
I was wondering who'd be first to do that math - and it shouldn't be overlooked that the design is predicated on two separate boxes - to be honest, I didn't read all the details, but I'd assume that was for acoustic time alignment - so the cost of materials would be higher and the complication might be daunting for a first time builder.
Let's face it, "FAST" designs as normally implemented by the FR crowd are simply two-ways with lower than normal XOs (i.e usually below the bottom of the telephone band) - whether implemented passively or actively
None of this makes sreten's specific suggestion wrong in the strictest sense, but perhaps out of context in regards to the OP's stated list of objectives. Of course, whom among us hasn't had project goals, priorities, budgets or timelines change once underway?
As it was again front page news, the Victoria Johnson Street ( Blue Bridge ) replacement comes immediately to mind
Hi,
True, hence my comment " I wouldn't mess about".
Your right, I'm implying he needs to spend more.
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
IMO when your viewpoint is clearly way off the normal bell
curve of peoples expectations it serves no useful purpose.
I've no doubt P10 can live with what he says he can,
but quite frankly some / most would be apalled at
the basic limitations such an approach implies.
I'm equally dismissive of the other side of the bell curve.
No problem with either type having extreme views,
but by definition such views are not typically helpful.
Representing an extreme view as very reasonable
is not IMO telling it the way it is, to most people.
rgds, sreten.
I built a system for someone. He was very happy.
However he was intrigued by the valve amplifier
I was using. So I duly installed it in his system.
Thanks but no thanks was his near immediate
attitude, the limitations mattered the most.
(Maximum SPL being the major big difference.)
You could argue he was being shortsighted,
but I would argue whilst you can learn to
live with limitations, for other benefits,
why live with limitations you don't want ?
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Quite a few others have heard "my room", they can make theie own comments, but my feeling from what they have said to me, is that if i am outside the curve then they are too, enuff of them to move the bell.
All you comments tell me, is that your FR experiences have been limited and do not really represent what is possible.
dave
Hi,
All your comments tell me you have moved to FR possible.
What is impossible with a FR is no longer your concern.
However there is a tendency to exaggerate FR capabilities
due to a serious lack of rigorous comparison with non-FRs.
Don't get me wrong, I like FRs very suitable for purpose.
rgds, sreten.
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Guys, thanks for your responses! It's very encouraging.
Of course, this raises some questions and comments, which I'll address to
the individuals below:
@dave111: Not sure what you mean by a spiral horn exactly. I did stumble across
some Cornu Spiral designs, and they seem so fun and different (foam board etc.)
that I'll definitely be doing that soon anyway. Putting 8" speakers in one of these
seems like a challenge, though - do you have pointers to any plans?
@chrisb: Curved sides are no problem, but I did wonder whether the curve has any
acoustic function. For example, if they're replaced with a straight-line angled cut,
does it really change the sound? They do look beautiful, though. The MLTL designs are so amazingly
simple, they're very enticing, the hardwood builds in particular. Luckily, the
speakers I'm building are for music exclusively, so I can forego the 25Hz rumble
as the villain appears at the heroine's back door in the middle of the night!
@sreten: I can see why the wording of my initial post suggested that I want high
volume, but I'm way past the age for really loud listening! I doubt I'll be turning
the volume knob up past a quarter of its range. The Tarkus does indeed seem to be
a great sound system, and I hope to get there eventually, but I do want to start simple.
@nigelwright: The Fane Sovereign speakers look very nice, and I'll definitely keep
them in mind for when I build multi-driver speakers. For my first project, I think
I'll stick with a single driver.
Of course, this raises some questions and comments, which I'll address to
the individuals below:
@dave111: Not sure what you mean by a spiral horn exactly. I did stumble across
some Cornu Spiral designs, and they seem so fun and different (foam board etc.)
that I'll definitely be doing that soon anyway. Putting 8" speakers in one of these
seems like a challenge, though - do you have pointers to any plans?
@chrisb: Curved sides are no problem, but I did wonder whether the curve has any
acoustic function. For example, if they're replaced with a straight-line angled cut,
does it really change the sound? They do look beautiful, though. The MLTL designs are so amazingly
simple, they're very enticing, the hardwood builds in particular. Luckily, the
speakers I'm building are for music exclusively, so I can forego the 25Hz rumble
as the villain appears at the heroine's back door in the middle of the night!
@sreten: I can see why the wording of my initial post suggested that I want high
volume, but I'm way past the age for really loud listening! I doubt I'll be turning
the volume knob up past a quarter of its range. The Tarkus does indeed seem to be
a great sound system, and I hope to get there eventually, but I do want to start simple.
@nigelwright: The Fane Sovereign speakers look very nice, and I'll definitely keep
them in mind for when I build multi-driver speakers. For my first project, I think
I'll stick with a single driver.
udoitall,
If you're trying to fill an ~ 2:1 area from one end, some projection might be helpful. Consider a Karlson cabinet design. There are floor/pedestal standing cabs of various internal complexities, wedge shaped "Klam" kinda-horns, and even cylindrical "K-tubes". They are single driver designs. Originally intended for full range drivers, they can be specialized/combined after crossovers if desired. Like most designs of the early hifi era, they aren't well favored, but they are one of those few that continue to attract and convince well enough that there are new adherents and few detractors. Projection with depth and clarity is their forte. They were installed at (Old) Yankee Stadium and at Radio City Music Hall for this reason. This site is one of several where you can find plans, discussions and more than a couple True Believers. Here's a place to start, sixty years ago. Don't worry, we'll wait for you to catch up.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/download/1955-Karlson-speaker-brochure.pdf
As for drivers, many here are well versed in the possibilities and can advise you, and even discuss the details with more or less vehemence for your entertainment. When I started testing the Klam design I picked up a bunch of GRS 8FR-8 "BOFU" clones (8" paper plus whizzer cone, 60 wRMS @ 8 ohm, 39-16kHz) for around $14 each. The results were good enough that I didn't see much reason to swap them for something "better". If I were going to, I'd first try a similar design, Goldwood GW-8003/8s, (8" polycone plus paper whizzer, 130 wRMS @ 8 ohm, 28-20kHz) at about $22. (Source, specs, prices from Parts-Express). Maybe. I test outdoors, and have never had anyone do more than look as they drove by. The day I tested the 8" Klam BOFUs, two came to listen and inquire. Convinced I wasn't hearing experimenter bias, my remaining eight are slowing growing their own Klams and becoming part of my PA system.
PS: From the no-trivia-is-useless-to-everyone department, the name of the company that made your receiver translates to "harmonious sound".
If you're trying to fill an ~ 2:1 area from one end, some projection might be helpful. Consider a Karlson cabinet design. There are floor/pedestal standing cabs of various internal complexities, wedge shaped "Klam" kinda-horns, and even cylindrical "K-tubes". They are single driver designs. Originally intended for full range drivers, they can be specialized/combined after crossovers if desired. Like most designs of the early hifi era, they aren't well favored, but they are one of those few that continue to attract and convince well enough that there are new adherents and few detractors. Projection with depth and clarity is their forte. They were installed at (Old) Yankee Stadium and at Radio City Music Hall for this reason. This site is one of several where you can find plans, discussions and more than a couple True Believers. Here's a place to start, sixty years ago. Don't worry, we'll wait for you to catch up.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/download/1955-Karlson-speaker-brochure.pdf
As for drivers, many here are well versed in the possibilities and can advise you, and even discuss the details with more or less vehemence for your entertainment. When I started testing the Klam design I picked up a bunch of GRS 8FR-8 "BOFU" clones (8" paper plus whizzer cone, 60 wRMS @ 8 ohm, 39-16kHz) for around $14 each. The results were good enough that I didn't see much reason to swap them for something "better". If I were going to, I'd first try a similar design, Goldwood GW-8003/8s, (8" polycone plus paper whizzer, 130 wRMS @ 8 ohm, 28-20kHz) at about $22. (Source, specs, prices from Parts-Express). Maybe. I test outdoors, and have never had anyone do more than look as they drove by. The day I tested the 8" Klam BOFUs, two came to listen and inquire. Convinced I wasn't hearing experimenter bias, my remaining eight are slowing growing their own Klams and becoming part of my PA system.
PS: From the no-trivia-is-useless-to-everyone department, the name of the company that made your receiver translates to "harmonious sound".
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