i think with 12LTA - perception of midrange quality will be determined by which helper tweeter is used, that tweeter's power response and where it rolls in. I tried a small magnet Dynavox knockoff of the old CTS "phenolic ring" tweeter with 1-1.22uF - not quite loud enough , perhaps too much distortion on loud cymblas. A very expensive Yamaha compression driver meant to work 7KHz upwards gave a good impression. I think an old CTS/Motorola KSN1005 would be alright, and of course piezo can be transformer matched to give >100dB sensitivity - if needed. Brian Steele came up with a Frankenpiezo mix of GRS and Goldwood 1016 parts which might be pretty good
12lta, IIRC, despite a high xmax figure, has ~0.08" voice coil overhang, so when driven hard, has some audible compression as BL factor is dropping (i think) - -(I'll try to graph one in the Karlsonator12 where it sounded "good")
I have a lot of coax, among them, the old Beyma 12cx whose woofers go pretty high - speakers like that can have a nice midrange.
The Fane is very extended dead on axis with its double whizzer cone - a nice lively mid - kinda like some guitar speakers - the top end to my old ears sounds a bit "papery" - it sounded good in a Karlson 12 enclosure with the distributed slit vent damped to "aperiodic" with bonded Dacron. Its qts is high and means large vented - or reasonable sized sealed boxes. It will take decent amounts of power without bottoming out even in free air.
Celestion seems to make good products - I'd like to hear their 12 but already have "lots".....
12lta, IIRC, despite a high xmax figure, has ~0.08" voice coil overhang, so when driven hard, has some audible compression as BL factor is dropping (i think) - -(I'll try to graph one in the Karlsonator12 where it sounded "good")
I have a lot of coax, among them, the old Beyma 12cx whose woofers go pretty high - speakers like that can have a nice midrange.
The Fane is very extended dead on axis with its double whizzer cone - a nice lively mid - kinda like some guitar speakers - the top end to my old ears sounds a bit "papery" - it sounded good in a Karlson 12 enclosure with the distributed slit vent damped to "aperiodic" with bonded Dacron. Its qts is high and means large vented - or reasonable sized sealed boxes. It will take decent amounts of power without bottoming out even in free air.
Celestion seems to make good products - I'd like to hear their 12 but already have "lots".....
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12lta is very good. Never heard the Fane or Celestion. Maybe they are better?
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/eminence-beta-12lta-on-open-baffle/
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/eminence-beta-12lta-on-open-baffle/
Freddi,
Interesting comments on the 12lta regarding the tweeter blending and the compression.
What do mean by a "papery" sound for the fane? I've not heard that one.
Norman,
How are you having to eq your fane? What type of enclosure and what application?
I need to read through the fane thread again. Thanks for the help.
Interesting comments on the 12lta regarding the tweeter blending and the compression.
What do mean by a "papery" sound for the fane? I've not heard that one.
Norman,
How are you having to eq your fane? What type of enclosure and what application?
I need to read through the fane thread again. Thanks for the help.
by "papery" I mean the treble of the Fane goes high but sound texture - perhpas rough (more subjectives 
) as with some paper cone tweeters vs a soft dome tweeter or aluminum dustcap. Maybe I'm wrong on the audible compression for 12lta - but it seems that way vs C12CX 80oz magnet, Martin 1114 80oz magnet, custom 12cx 109oz magnet, - maybe even custom 54oz magnet 12cx (all these are 12 inch Eminence coaxial)
Coax can sound "broken" if their tweeter is cranked up a lot past the woofer. Adjustable pads are useful.
Coax can have more treble power response vs 12" fullrange - there's a place above 2-3K where the compression driver contribution has a wider dispersion than the fullrange. But I have a Beyma 12 with 2.8uF cap whose woofer goes pretty high.
I'd like to see a 12lta with at least 54oz magnet - the Fane goes nearly an octave higher than 12lta and can work without help of a tweeter.
this is the way the 1114, C12cx look with 80oz magnet, 2.5" edgewound coil, and cast frame - I've 54oz magnet Eminence in cast ("hornless" like Beta cx) and stamped steel frame with the same "CDP" size/shape HF horn)
teh 109oz magnet version is less sensitive, more moving mass but at around 50g mms, not bad for a 4 inch voice coil with 4.8mm overhang - I thought this sounded very good with tenor Fritz Wunderlich and piano in a lieder recital
Here's EV's "CDP" ("Compund Diffraction Horn") still in production - around all my lifetime and I'm 66) - I think Eminence HF horns are similar. Also, IIRC, the CDP was used in EV's "Georgian" K-horn
) as with some paper cone tweeters vs a soft dome tweeter or aluminum dustcap. Maybe I'm wrong on the audible compression for 12lta - but it seems that way vs C12CX 80oz magnet, Martin 1114 80oz magnet, custom 12cx 109oz magnet, - maybe even custom 54oz magnet 12cx (all these are 12 inch Eminence coaxial) Coax can sound "broken" if their tweeter is cranked up a lot past the woofer. Adjustable pads are useful.
Coax can have more treble power response vs 12" fullrange - there's a place above 2-3K where the compression driver contribution has a wider dispersion than the fullrange. But I have a Beyma 12 with 2.8uF cap whose woofer goes pretty high.
I'd like to see a 12lta with at least 54oz magnet - the Fane goes nearly an octave higher than 12lta and can work without help of a tweeter.
this is the way the 1114, C12cx look with 80oz magnet, 2.5" edgewound coil, and cast frame - I've 54oz magnet Eminence in cast ("hornless" like Beta cx) and stamped steel frame with the same "CDP" size/shape HF horn)
teh 109oz magnet version is less sensitive, more moving mass but at around 50g mms, not bad for a 4 inch voice coil with 4.8mm overhang - I thought this sounded very good with tenor Fritz Wunderlich and piano in a lieder recital
Here's EV's "CDP" ("Compund Diffraction Horn") still in production - around all my lifetime and I'm 66) - I think Eminence HF horns are similar. Also, IIRC, the CDP was used in EV's "Georgian" K-horn
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If specs are ~accurate, these would make good corner horns and with >105 dB eff. a low Xmax is moot or maybe go retro with Fulmer's K-slot corner [crude two-stage] TQWT: The Karlson Homepage
GM
GM,
You mention these could work in a corner horn or k-slot corner and although I don't have corners for these particular speaker project I respect your input so I am thinking about it.
But until then this is what I think I want to do, but I can be talked out of it. I am thinking 12" wide range (eminence beta 12lta or Fane or celestion) in a sealed box to cover ~100hz to ~10khz. Then tweeter for the top octave. That would sit on a bass box, possibly tapped horn (12" or 15") to cover ~35hz to ~100hz. Basically a FAST system that requires a tweeter for the top octave. To mainly play classic rock and blues. Like Zeppelin. Most likely use tube amp to drive the mids/hi's and use plate amp to drive the woofer.
Is this a good driver for that application? Is this a good setup for what I think I want to do?
Thanks for any feedback
You mention these could work in a corner horn or k-slot corner and although I don't have corners for these particular speaker project I respect your input so I am thinking about it.
But until then this is what I think I want to do, but I can be talked out of it. I am thinking 12" wide range (eminence beta 12lta or Fane or celestion) in a sealed box to cover ~100hz to ~10khz. Then tweeter for the top octave. That would sit on a bass box, possibly tapped horn (12" or 15") to cover ~35hz to ~100hz. Basically a FAST system that requires a tweeter for the top octave. To mainly play classic rock and blues. Like Zeppelin. Most likely use tube amp to drive the mids/hi's and use plate amp to drive the woofer.
Is this a good driver for that application? Is this a good setup for what I think I want to do?
Thanks for any feedback
Which driver, you listed three? Regardless, based solely on published data the K12H-100TC would be a 'drop-in' replacement for the 12" 'FR' drivers I pulled from old radio consoles and bought 'modern' replacements for when I couldn't find any more 'curb queens' locally.
Coupled to a matching impedance amp's 'smiley face' EQ, a solid ~50 - 15 kHz easily handled all the AM/FM/vinyl/tape sources that the folks I made 'el cheapo' speakers for up till I mostly quit in '75 and for folks that wanted more SPL for longer/larger areas I added a cheap 1200 Hz expo 90x40 horn capped off at 2.2 uF [~10 kHz?], using the amp's bass boost to perk up the low end a bit at most since back then powerful 'bass' was actually mid-bass same as most concerts up till relatively recently and they already had a prominent [mid] bass due to using bottom loaded column/tower [now MLTL] alignments based on 'classic' tuning theory.
Nowadays I recommend OB or mildly resistive loaded alignments for the wide range to maximize clarity/effortlessness presentation and super-tweeter horns just because I prefer them over typical cone/dome tweeters, though a 'ringed' array of the tiny ones used in vehicle doors around the wide range worked a treat the one time I tried it.
BIB pipe horn subs would be nice, though if a tapped TL or horn the XO ideally needs to be lowered to <80 Hz. Really though, for the intended music, all you need is massive mid-bass tuned low like my Altecs, so at least a couple of prosound 15"/channel [or multiple 18-21" if you want to go today's disco 'live'] in EQ'd sealed alignments.
GM
Coupled to a matching impedance amp's 'smiley face' EQ, a solid ~50 - 15 kHz easily handled all the AM/FM/vinyl/tape sources that the folks I made 'el cheapo' speakers for up till I mostly quit in '75 and for folks that wanted more SPL for longer/larger areas I added a cheap 1200 Hz expo 90x40 horn capped off at 2.2 uF [~10 kHz?], using the amp's bass boost to perk up the low end a bit at most since back then powerful 'bass' was actually mid-bass same as most concerts up till relatively recently and they already had a prominent [mid] bass due to using bottom loaded column/tower [now MLTL] alignments based on 'classic' tuning theory.
Nowadays I recommend OB or mildly resistive loaded alignments for the wide range to maximize clarity/effortlessness presentation and super-tweeter horns just because I prefer them over typical cone/dome tweeters, though a 'ringed' array of the tiny ones used in vehicle doors around the wide range worked a treat the one time I tried it.
BIB pipe horn subs would be nice, though if a tapped TL or horn the XO ideally needs to be lowered to <80 Hz. Really though, for the intended music, all you need is massive mid-bass tuned low like my Altecs, so at least a couple of prosound 15"/channel [or multiple 18-21" if you want to go today's disco 'live'] in EQ'd sealed alignments.
GM
You're welcome!
Yeah, this hobby can be as simple or complex as you want it to be, so if time/budget allows one can always just blindly go where many of us did and just do something to get a baseline, so maybe just follow NB's lead.
FWIW, my first speaker project was noting that the oval speaker in our car's dashboard was about the right shape/size to fit in the large Kleenex boxes of the day, so gutted mom's once I found one at the curb and deemed it a resounding success once coupled to a hand-me-down 1940 Philco AM radio that allowed me to listen in secret to music parents in general and mine in particular didn't approve of. An inauspicious start, but six decades later the 'light still burns bright' as there's always something new to learn/experiment with.
GM
Yeah, this hobby can be as simple or complex as you want it to be, so if time/budget allows one can always just blindly go where many of us did and just do something to get a baseline, so maybe just follow NB's lead.
FWIW, my first speaker project was noting that the oval speaker in our car's dashboard was about the right shape/size to fit in the large Kleenex boxes of the day, so gutted mom's once I found one at the curb and deemed it a resounding success once coupled to a hand-me-down 1940 Philco AM radio that allowed me to listen in secret to music parents in general and mine in particular didn't approve of. An inauspicious start, but six decades later the 'light still burns bright' as there's always something new to learn/experiment with.
GM
GM,
Understood. I still don't think I know much, but I know more now than I did last year or the year before that or....and so on.
Fortunately this is a secondary system to play with and I really like the sound of my primary system. It is a SET driving BIB's. I listen to a lot of blues and it has a "in the studio/in the club sound ". But when I play rock loud, it sounds like a low watt amp driving a small driver.
Understood. I still don't think I know much, but I know more now than I did last year or the year before that or....and so on.
Fortunately this is a secondary system to play with and I really like the sound of my primary system. It is a SET driving BIB's. I listen to a lot of blues and it has a "in the studio/in the club sound ". But when I play rock loud, it sounds like a low watt amp driving a small driver.
Yeah, if it'a typical BIB tuning [an octave below Fs], then power handling is going to be too limited unless significantly EQ'd..
Most vintage rock was mixed on speakers with a ~40 Hz Fb that ramped up to +24 dB/~80 Hz [classic reflex tuning] out to at least ~300 Hz to get the powerful [mid]bass/lower mids 'slam'/'kick' when driven with a high output impedance or at least EQ'd to ~match its response with more modern amps.
Frequency response of a typical vintage Altec studio monitor/consumer version driven with a high output impedance [ignore above ~500 Hz which is unshelved horn]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/515b/3087249868/in/dateposted-public/
In today's world it is considered an unacceptably under-damped alignment and in theory one should have a dead flat in room speaker response to properly reproduce it, but the reality is not so much to get the 'jump' factor of a live concert.
GM
Most vintage rock was mixed on speakers with a ~40 Hz Fb that ramped up to +24 dB/~80 Hz [classic reflex tuning] out to at least ~300 Hz to get the powerful [mid]bass/lower mids 'slam'/'kick' when driven with a high output impedance or at least EQ'd to ~match its response with more modern amps.
Frequency response of a typical vintage Altec studio monitor/consumer version driven with a high output impedance [ignore above ~500 Hz which is unshelved horn]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/515b/3087249868/in/dateposted-public/
In today's world it is considered an unacceptably under-damped alignment and in theory one should have a dead flat in room speaker response to properly reproduce it, but the reality is not so much to get the 'jump' factor of a live concert.
GM
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I've got a pair of Celestion's on the way from Parts Express.
I'll be running them full range for now in some open baffles. I did look at the Fane and Eminence drivers but settled on the Celestions for a starting point.
Aside from the removal of the dust cap are there other mods that are beneficial?
I'll be running them full range for now in some open baffles. I did look at the Fane and Eminence drivers but settled on the Celestions for a starting point.
Aside from the removal of the dust cap are there other mods that are beneficial?
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