The Liberty 8s will go into a midbass front horn, I think they would not work too well at low frequencies. The Celestion has the rising response I would avoid, the Faital pro 12PR310 looks flatter to me. Do you want to use a guitar speaker as such or just use a 12" woofer?
I love the sound of large PA speakers played in low volume, very clean and low distortion. With the 12", if you use a 1" constant directivity horn and proper crossover, you can get a great speaker. If you would like to have a 2x12 like loudspeaker, I would recommend to use a pair of Fane 12-250TC, since they are full range and do not really need a tweeter. But they require a closed box of ca 70 - 90 l each to play low. I own a pair and they are great.
I love the sound of large PA speakers played in low volume, very clean and low distortion. With the 12", if you use a 1" constant directivity horn and proper crossover, you can get a great speaker. If you would like to have a 2x12 like loudspeaker, I would recommend to use a pair of Fane 12-250TC, since they are full range and do not really need a tweeter. But they require a closed box of ca 70 - 90 l each to play low. I own a pair and they are great.
the rising response of TF1220 should work to advantage if using in a Karlson K12/K15 or Karlsonator 12.
Here's Cannabis Rex in a slit vent K12. With that type motor, there's not much punch but it sounded pretty good on vocals
all by itself, and good with electric guitar. I wish Emiennce would make a version with cloth surround and 80oz magnet slug.
Fane's twin whizzer 250TC is a good one as no tweeter needed.
Here's Cannabis Rex in a slit vent K12. With that type motor, there's not much punch but it sounded pretty good on vocals
all by itself, and good with electric guitar. I wish Emiennce would make a version with cloth surround and 80oz magnet slug.
Fane's twin whizzer 250TC is a good one as no tweeter needed.
Last edited:
I am looking to make a large (12") driver speaker for hifi use. Large driver could give very good quality even when playing at low volume?
1. A PA type speaker with hor would be a good solution?
are you talking about something like that with one horn see picture?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/68/1a/12681aa84e44477fd06ea0d7f360afbf.jpg
Which drivers would you recommend in a sealed box with external horn?
2. Many friends mentioned the full range Fane 12-250TC but I am not sure that will cover all band from low to high with high quality sound and I heard several opinions about the volume. The official site recommend much lower volumes comparing to discussions. The Qts is a bit high 0.64 and recommend enclosures from 30 to 75 lit (I guess 30 for sealed and 75 for vented) What is your experience with those?
Last edited:
I think GM may have posted a good cabinet for the FANE. A pure vented box would be pretty big. It sounded nice enough in my Karlsonator12 but did not get measurements to see how much peaking there was on the low end.
250TC sounded nice in a Karlson 12 with damped vent and no noticeable LF peaking - it just didn't have any low end or punch in that situation and would need a subwoofer. It had enough rise in its response to not exhibit funky sound in that little Karlaon box.
IF the amplifier has a low output impedance, then a 3rd order sealed box using a series capacitor would work.
a stuffed MLTL could be ok - here's a try at 145 liters
make the port longer and it should be pretty flat
250TC sounded nice in a Karlson 12 with damped vent and no noticeable LF peaking - it just didn't have any low end or punch in that situation and would need a subwoofer. It had enough rise in its response to not exhibit funky sound in that little Karlaon box.
IF the amplifier has a low output impedance, then a 3rd order sealed box using a series capacitor would work.
a stuffed MLTL could be ok - here's a try at 145 liters
make the port longer and it should be pretty flat
Last edited:
well - 40 liters sealed with 400uF series capacitor should work IF the amplifier's output impedance is low and speaker wire (ann capacitor) losses minimal. A high source impedance (such as found in "zero feedback" tube amplifiers) would negate the desired effect.
A sealed box with "aperiodic" vent or two chamber aperiodic such as Dynaco employed back in the 1970's with SEAS brand speakers would be another option.
A sealed box with "aperiodic" vent or two chamber aperiodic such as Dynaco employed back in the 1970's with SEAS brand speakers would be another option.
I had the 12-250TCs in a 44 l BR box of unknown tuning (attachment 1) - the box was used basically as a holder, since I crossed over to my subwoofer horns at around 120 Hz. Now they are in ca 90l sealed boxes and can be easily listened to on their own (the other pictures) and since they are sealed, they can handle a bit of boost at the low end to extend the response lower. The key to listening to those is to toe them in/out, so that the sound at the listening place is balanced. Some in room measurements of the sub/fane combo are in the attachment as well. This is around 20 - 30 deg off axis in a ca 2.5 stereo triangle and no smoothing.
Large format PA drivers sound really nice even with low volumes. Any decent PA 12" in a well designed bass reflex box with a 1" compression driver and a large horn crossed over to match the directivity at the crossover frequency and time aligned will sound awesome. I do not dare to recommend the crossover frequency or a certain model, but I would look into the BC speakers line or with lower budget, the Fane Sovereigns do not look to bad either, since I really like the 12-250TC. I was also very happy for a long time with these: Eminence Beta 12 CX + Selenium D210Ti MLTL (huge) - so I would not be afraid to use Eminence, I wanted to use Delta12LF that I had, but unfortunately, one of the pair was dead so I sold the one that was left - and there was a rise that might need taming.
As a source of inspiration, here is quite a bunch of 12" PA woofer-horn combinations complete with crossover and full sets of measurements (including polars)! Sestavy s 12" | PRODANCE
Edit: Click the PDF next to the driver description to show the PDF with the measurements. Also, do not look at the low end, watch for the crossover integration, frequency response on axis and the polar measurements. The flatter, the better. I just looked at a few and there are some that measure really nice!
Large format PA drivers sound really nice even with low volumes. Any decent PA 12" in a well designed bass reflex box with a 1" compression driver and a large horn crossed over to match the directivity at the crossover frequency and time aligned will sound awesome. I do not dare to recommend the crossover frequency or a certain model, but I would look into the BC speakers line or with lower budget, the Fane Sovereigns do not look to bad either, since I really like the 12-250TC. I was also very happy for a long time with these: Eminence Beta 12 CX + Selenium D210Ti MLTL (huge) - so I would not be afraid to use Eminence, I wanted to use Delta12LF that I had, but unfortunately, one of the pair was dead so I sold the one that was left - and there was a rise that might need taming.
As a source of inspiration, here is quite a bunch of 12" PA woofer-horn combinations complete with crossover and full sets of measurements (including polars)! Sestavy s 12" | PRODANCE
Edit: Click the PDF next to the driver description to show the PDF with the measurements. Also, do not look at the low end, watch for the crossover integration, frequency response on axis and the polar measurements. The flatter, the better. I just looked at a few and there are some that measure really nice!
Attachments
Last edited:
Beta12cx should work pretty well in the Karlsonator12. Did you happen to use the passive crossover suggested in your link of 2-way systems?
Karlson's K12 seemed a bit cramped for Beta12CX - I think if scaled ~1.16X to give 56 liter rear and 28 liter front chamber that migjht be OK. I once had Beta12cx in an "X15" Karlson copy. One time when playing a recording of a large Taiko drum, it played so loud that I thought something had broken - or that the cone would have jumped an inch. I moved no more than 1/4 inch peak to peak.
(there was no low bass with that cabinet which was about 56/28 liter split - but fun anyhow)
Karlson's K12 seemed a bit cramped for Beta12CX - I think if scaled ~1.16X to give 56 liter rear and 28 liter front chamber that migjht be OK. I once had Beta12cx in an "X15" Karlson copy. One time when playing a recording of a large Taiko drum, it played so loud that I thought something had broken - or that the cone would have jumped an inch. I moved no more than 1/4 inch peak to peak.
(there was no low bass with that cabinet which was about 56/28 liter split - but fun anyhow)
Yes, the measurement of the Beta12CX and D210Ti is measurement of my speakers
And it is the crossover that is used there - the ML TLs are now at my brother's place serving still very well And I think these stay where they are for quite a time. A Karlsonator 12 is on a long term project list and so is trying different 12" speakers I have in the K15 I own.
Vha, I just should say, that the Karlson type speakers have a certain magic to them (I got one German made, unfortunately, just one). Aesthetically, you could place an acoustically transparent cloth in front of the slot and they would look as standard speakers - about the size of a 2x12 guitar combo on its side or a vertical 2x12 guitar box.
And it is the crossover that is used there - the ML TLs are now at my brother's place serving still very well And I think these stay where they are for quite a time. A Karlsonator 12 is on a long term project list and so is trying different 12" speakers I have in the K15 I own.Vha, I just should say, that the Karlson type speakers have a certain magic to them (I got one German made, unfortunately, just one). Aesthetically, you could place an acoustically transparent cloth in front of the slot and they would look as standard speakers - about the size of a 2x12 guitar combo on its side or a vertical 2x12 guitar box.
Thank you for all this information I need to read each detail and I dont have so much experience.
I agree with you of the magic behind karlsonator concept and I remember from old time those pair of speakers with one driver connected to a stereo system on which with guitar amp on it too. Referring to the aesthetic point of view which I mentioned before I personally like to see the driver so problem is not to find a way to cover it but those lets say curtains of wood in the front and the overall sizes of the cabinet.
There are ways to make them beautiful by replacing for example the wooden curtains with transparent material like plexiglass and if there are other smaller drivers behind that will be better, Lets say it becomes a three way speaker with a mid-range and a tweeter??
What are the different options for system? Dont forget its for HiFi use for the moment except my guitar amps I still dont have a tube amp with high impedance I will deal with this in the future..
I agree with you of the magic behind karlsonator concept and I remember from old time those pair of speakers with one driver connected to a stereo system on which with guitar amp on it too. Referring to the aesthetic point of view which I mentioned before I personally like to see the driver so problem is not to find a way to cover it but those lets say curtains of wood in the front and the overall sizes of the cabinet.
There are ways to make them beautiful by replacing for example the wooden curtains with transparent material like plexiglass and if there are other smaller drivers behind that will be better, Lets say it becomes a three way speaker with a mid-range and a tweeter??
What are the different options for system? Dont forget its for HiFi use for the moment except my guitar amps I still dont have a tube amp with high impedance I will deal with this in the future..
Last edited:
Mids and highs are fine enough. If I understand you correctly, you would like to have two loudspeakers in one box, one for left, one for right. I cannot say if this will work well as I have them in separate boxes. These loudspeakers are not optimal for listening on axis, it is better if you can split them and you have the option of toeing in or out.
I used a 90l box because I got a used box of this size cheaply (it used to hold two 12" speakers and a horn). I used them as PA (with the subs) for a small garden party and it was plenty loud for that purpose (reproduced rock/metal music).
The first attachment is showing the difference between 60 l (dark) and 90 l (light). The second attachment is showing the effect of 6 dB boost at 50 Hz, which is safe up to ca 8 W at this frequency. 8 W with this loudspeaker gives something like 105 dB for a single speaker at floor level. Which is plenty loud. You will be able to use even more with music that is not too bass heavy.
I used a 90l box because I got a used box of this size cheaply (it used to hold two 12" speakers and a horn). I used them as PA (with the subs) for a small garden party and it was plenty loud for that purpose (reproduced rock/metal music).
The first attachment is showing the difference between 60 l (dark) and 90 l (light). The second attachment is showing the effect of 6 dB boost at 50 Hz, which is safe up to ca 8 W at this frequency. 8 W with this loudspeaker gives something like 105 dB for a single speaker at floor level. Which is plenty loud. You will be able to use even more with music that is not too bass heavy.
Attachments
Last edited:
Yes I know that the mids and high are ok the whole point is with the bass. Full range option which is more simple I was thinking to put one or two drivers in one enclosure for each channel.
What do you mean with: "it is better if you can split them and you have the option of toeing in or out."
What do you mean with: "it is better if you can split them and you have the option of toeing in or out."
Maybe we should start drawing pictures Two full range speakers in one enclosure playing one channel and other two in another box for the second channel is a no go. That brings lots of comb filtering into the game. I would instead go for a dedicated midbass woofer with a horn crossed over at ca 1200 Hz. Or the other option is to use one full range and one dedicated mid-bass in one box, crossed over around the baffle step frequency, each with its own internal volume - separated. The midbass could be bass reflex and the full range in a relatively small sealed box.
Two full range speakers in one enclosure playing one channel and other two in another box for the second channel is a no go. That brings lots of comb filtering into the game. I would instead go for a dedicated midbass woofer with a horn crossed over at ca 1200 Hz. Or the other option is to use one full range and one dedicated mid-bass in one box, crossed over around the baffle step frequency, each with its own internal volume - separated. The midbass could be bass reflex and the full range in a relatively small sealed box.
Why? A great way to get ~perfect tonal balance, just roll one off at the upper mass corner or wherever the baffle step is. Heck, even higher, up to nearly a WL of its c-t-c works in some cases, then just a matter of finding the right toe-in, which with the '50s-'60s era radio/console drivers I normally used most often was to point the left speaker at the right seat and vice versa, [usually] a three seat [~100"] sofa.
GM
GM
Last edited:
GM, the thing is, that you can get 12" speakers, that can play lower in a smaller box for the same money. I think the result could be then a more compact box. If there are no problems with the size, a 150 - 180 l sealed box would work well as you say, I think
I plan to do what you say with some smaller FRs (I have 4 units) in the smaller boxes pictured in this thread (with a new front baffle and sealed, or maybe some sort of aperiodic).
By the way, for guitar, an open back 1x12 on top of a 1x12 BR with a rolled off speaker made a very nice combination. It was inspired by M/B half back cabinets.
While talking about it, 12-250TC as OB above a 1x12 BR with roll off should work really well, too. I need to try that one day
I plan to do what you say with some smaller FRs (I have 4 units) in the smaller boxes pictured in this thread (with a new front baffle and sealed, or maybe some sort of aperiodic).
By the way, for guitar, an open back 1x12 on top of a 1x12 BR with a rolled off speaker made a very nice combination. It was inspired by M/B half back cabinets.
While talking about it, 12-250TC as OB above a 1x12 BR with roll off should work really well, too. I need to try that one day
Thank you so much for your help,
You know I am not so familiar with all the terms you are using.
1. Dedicated mid bass woofer with a horn , Do you mean a mid bass with its cone and the mid-range or a mid bass and the horn will be for a external tweeter (I really like this especially if the horn is outside box..) I saw some beautiful sets like Cornwall and Heresy Klipsch very expensive with very good quality sound in the high end market.. which type of system would you recommend
2. Simple mid-range (one or two per channel) They can be separated inside the enclosure
3. Impressive OB was also something I always wanted to experience...
Which option will give very high quality sound? High sensitivity. For I will not use tube amp for the moment. I don't use to listen to the music very loud but I want the possibility to turn it to high power.
Again thank you
You know I am not so familiar with all the terms you are using.
1. Dedicated mid bass woofer with a horn , Do you mean a mid bass with its cone and the mid-range or a mid bass and the horn will be for a external tweeter (I really like this especially if the horn is outside box..) I saw some beautiful sets like Cornwall and Heresy Klipsch very expensive with very good quality sound in the high end market.. which type of system would you recommend
2. Simple mid-range (one or two per channel) They can be separated inside the enclosure
3. Impressive OB was also something I always wanted to experience...
Which option will give very high quality sound? High sensitivity. For I will not use tube amp for the moment. I don't use to listen to the music very loud but I want the possibility to turn it to high power.
Again thank you
Last edited:
I meant to have some nice 12" PA type speaker in a bass reflex box and a horn "tweeter", in a separate bix if you wish. If you are ready to use a 15", search for "calpamos speakers" with Google. I think a smaller and cheaper version could be built with 12" bass reflex box and 1" driver on a horn crossed over at around 1200 Hz. If you take care to time-align the drivers, the result will be great. There is a whole long thread with inspiration for two way speakers here: Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
I am definitely not an expert to give you a fully developed design - but the link for Prodance measurements shows some nice combinations with crossover design, you would only need to design the low frequency enclosure with e.g. Hornresp, VituixCAD, WinISD or any other tool.
All I wanted to say is, that a PA style bass+horn top, especially with constant directivity, is one of the ways to a great sounding speaker with high sensitivity.
In your case, I can recommend the combination above or the full range with 12-250TC in a large sealed box with the speaker at ear height. Both will give you high sensitivity and great quality sound, each with a different texture to it. I like (and use) both options.
If you are adventurous and do not mind a bigger box, maybe GM could help you with a design for a (ML)TL - a folded transmission line type box to extend the low end a bit. He was the man, who designed the Beta12CX box mentioned above (with Prodance designed crossover), that I happily used for a long time before I had finally chance to build my dream 4way horn stack
I am definitely not an expert to give you a fully developed design - but the link for Prodance measurements shows some nice combinations with crossover design, you would only need to design the low frequency enclosure with e.g. Hornresp, VituixCAD, WinISD or any other tool.
All I wanted to say is, that a PA style bass+horn top, especially with constant directivity, is one of the ways to a great sounding speaker with high sensitivity.
In your case, I can recommend the combination above or the full range with 12-250TC in a large sealed box with the speaker at ear height. Both will give you high sensitivity and great quality sound, each with a different texture to it. I like (and use) both options.
If you are adventurous and do not mind a bigger box, maybe GM could help you with a design for a (ML)TL - a folded transmission line type box to extend the low end a bit. He was the man, who designed the Beta12CX box mentioned above (with Prodance designed crossover), that I happily used for a long time before I had finally chance to build my dream 4way horn stack