Hi there!
I was on HTShack, and I was told I might get better feedback around here... so hello there!
I have always been interested in Line Arrays... I personally think they look cool, but I have zero experience with them. Never built one, never heard one! So, what better project than starting something completely new to me!
I only have one room available as we share our house between our living quarters and working areas. This room is quite large, it is an open design, has a living room and dining room together, opens to the staircase going up, and... it's all cement! (Cement houses are the norm here (Taiwan) as we get lots of earthquakes and some typhoons (hurricanes for people in the US, cyclones down under).
Also.... it has to be spouse friendly! I know a few here will relate.
The room. It is 10m x 5m, and has a 3m high ceiling. (33' x 16', 10' ceiling). It is roughly a rectangle with some expanding here and there.
The audio shelf (which I have to keep because I need extended storage space.. a rare commodity in shared spaces) is 3.6m long and 50cm high (12' long and 19" high). So no space for tower speakers.
Here's the room as it is now:
I've been researching for full range drivers, and I found this 4", made locally, and available at the reasonable price of $18 a unit. This way, I wouldn't have to design a crossover, which would be another thing to learn! Unless I need to add some tweeters to the mix. ( I have been reading on crossovers lately and it may not be as daunting as I initially thought to get the basics... I'm sure years of experience do help though).
I'm trying to come up with some designs, but I need to understand how line arrays work. I downloaded Jim Griffin's white paper on LA, but I need time to understand the concepts...
Still don't know if I should go with an open baffle (easy construction), or closed back (more work!). Leaning towards open, I can always close later.
This is the driver I found. Anyone could provide some feedback regarding this unit? I'm thinking of using 6 of them per tower. I also found Beston, makers of ribbon tweeters, right here in my backyard. I could always add a few ribbon tweeters later if needed to overcome the combing effect.
I was on HTShack, and I was told I might get better feedback around here... so hello there!
I have always been interested in Line Arrays... I personally think they look cool, but I have zero experience with them. Never built one, never heard one! So, what better project than starting something completely new to me!
I only have one room available as we share our house between our living quarters and working areas. This room is quite large, it is an open design, has a living room and dining room together, opens to the staircase going up, and... it's all cement! (Cement houses are the norm here (Taiwan) as we get lots of earthquakes and some typhoons (hurricanes for people in the US, cyclones down under).
Also.... it has to be spouse friendly! I know a few here will relate.
The room. It is 10m x 5m, and has a 3m high ceiling. (33' x 16', 10' ceiling). It is roughly a rectangle with some expanding here and there.
The audio shelf (which I have to keep because I need extended storage space.. a rare commodity in shared spaces) is 3.6m long and 50cm high (12' long and 19" high). So no space for tower speakers.
Here's the room as it is now:
I've been researching for full range drivers, and I found this 4", made locally, and available at the reasonable price of $18 a unit. This way, I wouldn't have to design a crossover, which would be another thing to learn! Unless I need to add some tweeters to the mix. ( I have been reading on crossovers lately and it may not be as daunting as I initially thought to get the basics... I'm sure years of experience do help though).
I'm trying to come up with some designs, but I need to understand how line arrays work. I downloaded Jim Griffin's white paper on LA, but I need time to understand the concepts...
Still don't know if I should go with an open baffle (easy construction), or closed back (more work!). Leaning towards open, I can always close later.
This is the driver I found. Anyone could provide some feedback regarding this unit? I'm thinking of using 6 of them per tower. I also found Beston, makers of ribbon tweeters, right here in my backyard. I could always add a few ribbon tweeters later if needed to overcome the combing effect.
6 drivers do not a line array make. Not a great one anyway. Think 8-9 drivers minimum before you're getting anything particularly worthwhile, at least in array terms.
Wideband drivers can be made to work in an array, but you will need Eq for the top end (not too much of a problem) if you don't want to run tweeters. If you're running them open baffle, you'll also need dedicated woofers (not subs) since there's very little chance a couple of subs will get high enough to match them -not with decent quality anyway. As far as the drivers go, from the spec. published they should do a decent enough job if used well.
Wideband drivers can be made to work in an array, but you will need Eq for the top end (not too much of a problem) if you don't want to run tweeters. If you're running them open baffle, you'll also need dedicated woofers (not subs) since there's very little chance a couple of subs will get high enough to match them -not with decent quality anyway. As far as the drivers go, from the spec. published they should do a decent enough job if used well.
If space is limited, a closed box may be a better bet. If you built in the right angle for the baffle, they cabinets could wall-mount either side of the projector screen.
A slightly odd layout but here is a system with 8x drivers per side which is designed as part of the room. (Jordan drivers in this case but the same principle applies.)
JdM12 audio project
btw, I'm not sure why that design uses two arrays of 4 per side, possibly an after-thought or because mounting plates are available for 4 units. I'd have built as one long array.
A slightly odd layout but here is a system with 8x drivers per side which is designed as part of the room. (Jordan drivers in this case but the same principle applies.)
JdM12 audio project
btw, I'm not sure why that design uses two arrays of 4 per side, possibly an after-thought or because mounting plates are available for 4 units. I'd have built as one long array.
Welcome to diyAudio! You will get a lot more air time for your questions here vs HTshack.
+1 on you will need more units to be a line array - preferably floor to ceiling tall for best performance. There is a lot behind this and reading some of the many threads on line arrays will get you started with all the issues and tips on which way to go. Check out the "Cloning the IDS-25" thread, "Stupid cheap line array" thread, and "The Two Towers - a 25 driver line array..." Thread.
A few initial obvious tips:
- use high Qts drivers as they work well in sealed or OB cabinets. The current best value for great sound and most popular for line arrays seems to be the Vifa TC9FD. You will probably not find a more cost effective driver for line arrays or as an OB driver that is capable of the SQ and performance. $12 each is good because you will need a lot of drivers.
- sealed will give you better control of excursion and makes a more ridgid box and lets you get deeper bass than OB. Qnty 25 of the Vifa's with EQ gets down to 30 Hz with a sealed design.
- you will need significant EQ'ing to make it work. There are analog op amp based designs or you can go with DSP which makes it really easy to tweak on the fly.
Good luck!
+1 on you will need more units to be a line array - preferably floor to ceiling tall for best performance. There is a lot behind this and reading some of the many threads on line arrays will get you started with all the issues and tips on which way to go. Check out the "Cloning the IDS-25" thread, "Stupid cheap line array" thread, and "The Two Towers - a 25 driver line array..." Thread.
A few initial obvious tips:
- use high Qts drivers as they work well in sealed or OB cabinets. The current best value for great sound and most popular for line arrays seems to be the Vifa TC9FD. You will probably not find a more cost effective driver for line arrays or as an OB driver that is capable of the SQ and performance. $12 each is good because you will need a lot of drivers.
- sealed will give you better control of excursion and makes a more ridgid box and lets you get deeper bass than OB. Qnty 25 of the Vifa's with EQ gets down to 30 Hz with a sealed design.
- you will need significant EQ'ing to make it work. There are analog op amp based designs or you can go with DSP which makes it really easy to tweak on the fly.
Good luck!
On wall Line Array
Hi Perceval,
I agree with Scottmoose, six of these drivers drivers will not make a good array.
Using conventional drivers you need to have a LA that is at least 50% of your ceiling height, ideally 75%, to avoid various sonic issues.
So I guess around 16 drivers per side is a good start, 24 drivers would be ideal.
Your room is great! Perfect for on wall mounting where you can take advantage of boundary reinforcement to best advantage and keep a high WAF!
Some Eq ( from any good AV receiver or in the fantastic JRiver media centre) around 150Hz to 300Hz to lower this band and a wee bass boost around 40Hz will be great.
I'd suggest a sealed box of around 3 to 4 litres per driver using 12mm thick bamboo plywood and good internal cabinet wall dampening and approx. 0.5 litre volume ( when lightly " fluffed up") of Twaron or similar internal dampening per driver.
Avoid stranded cable and solder joints as this has a big effect when using 40 or 50 drivers per pair of speakers, use 0.5mm silver plated solid core copper and crimp the joints, no solder!
Your suggested driver looks good value at $18...Buy 50 or 100 ( centre channel and rear speakers too?) and you will get a good discount, say $12 each...That would be a deal!
Adding in a line array of tweeters will be expensive, add complexity, introduce crossover phase errors ( unless done with a sophisticated DSP / software like Accurate) and take a lot of test and measurement equipment / experience to get right.
Stick with these drivers for your first build and if you get hooked you will be able to sell them for a profit ( they will sound great!) and then move on to a more ambitious mark two version.
I have attached a few pics of some of my Line Arrays using the fantastic ( but more expensive) 4.5 inch Neo motor BMR driver.
All the best and hope some of this helps.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Perceval,
I agree with Scottmoose, six of these drivers drivers will not make a good array.
Using conventional drivers you need to have a LA that is at least 50% of your ceiling height, ideally 75%, to avoid various sonic issues.
So I guess around 16 drivers per side is a good start, 24 drivers would be ideal.
Your room is great! Perfect for on wall mounting where you can take advantage of boundary reinforcement to best advantage and keep a high WAF!
Some Eq ( from any good AV receiver or in the fantastic JRiver media centre) around 150Hz to 300Hz to lower this band and a wee bass boost around 40Hz will be great.
I'd suggest a sealed box of around 3 to 4 litres per driver using 12mm thick bamboo plywood and good internal cabinet wall dampening and approx. 0.5 litre volume ( when lightly " fluffed up") of Twaron or similar internal dampening per driver.
Avoid stranded cable and solder joints as this has a big effect when using 40 or 50 drivers per pair of speakers, use 0.5mm silver plated solid core copper and crimp the joints, no solder!
Your suggested driver looks good value at $18...Buy 50 or 100 ( centre channel and rear speakers too?) and you will get a good discount, say $12 each...That would be a deal!
Adding in a line array of tweeters will be expensive, add complexity, introduce crossover phase errors ( unless done with a sophisticated DSP / software like Accurate) and take a lot of test and measurement equipment / experience to get right.
Stick with these drivers for your first build and if you get hooked you will be able to sell them for a profit ( they will sound great!) and then move on to a more ambitious mark two version.
I have attached a few pics of some of my Line Arrays using the fantastic ( but more expensive) 4.5 inch Neo motor BMR driver.
All the best and hope some of this helps.
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
Woah! That's action! Thanks for the feedback!
A couple of things to follow through.
I tried a couple of places to get drivers or kits sent to me... they pretty much turned me down. Seems that shipping to Taiwan from the US or other places is kinda prohibitive (had expected that!) even though the import fees are not overwhelming. So, most places I talked to wouldn't ship to me.
So, I am locked into what is available around here. I've found Beston, which seems to have a good rep for their ribbon tweeters. Usher is also a company that enjoys an equally good rep (I drooled over their CP-777, I think they are gorgeous).
Then I found the company which has the 4" unit I showed above. They also have a 3" unit that is a little cheaper. It doesn't go as low, but has a better response at higher frequencies.
I knew I was not even close to the 70% needed to be a line array, but I was hoping I could get away with only 6 drivers per tower. I could bump this to 8, 9 ... or 10? and power taper this thing as 3-2-2-3? I need to check resistance... This is all new to me, and there's so much to ingest... still... loving it!
I wish I could mount the arrays to the wall, but there's a window on the right side... don't think that would work.
Thanks for the feedback! I think I'm going to love it here!
A couple of things to follow through.
I tried a couple of places to get drivers or kits sent to me... they pretty much turned me down. Seems that shipping to Taiwan from the US or other places is kinda prohibitive (had expected that!) even though the import fees are not overwhelming. So, most places I talked to wouldn't ship to me.
So, I am locked into what is available around here. I've found Beston, which seems to have a good rep for their ribbon tweeters. Usher is also a company that enjoys an equally good rep (I drooled over their CP-777, I think they are gorgeous).
Then I found the company which has the 4" unit I showed above. They also have a 3" unit that is a little cheaper. It doesn't go as low, but has a better response at higher frequencies.
I knew I was not even close to the 70% needed to be a line array, but I was hoping I could get away with only 6 drivers per tower. I could bump this to 8, 9 ... or 10? and power taper this thing as 3-2-2-3? I need to check resistance... This is all new to me, and there's so much to ingest... still... loving it!
I wish I could mount the arrays to the wall, but there's a window on the right side... don't think that would work.
Thanks for the feedback! I think I'm going to love it here!
Cool.
Now, I can get the 4" with the specs I've showed before, but they also have a 3" full range as well.
The 3" doesn't go as low as the 4", but they keep their strength over 17,000 ... where the 4" falls after 17,000.
Wondering which is better... lower end or higher end in the array. I do have 2 subs in the room.
Now, I can get the 4" with the specs I've showed before, but they also have a 3" full range as well.
The 3" doesn't go as low as the 4", but they keep their strength over 17,000 ... where the 4" falls after 17,000.
Wondering which is better... lower end or higher end in the array. I do have 2 subs in the room.
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FAST? It's a popular and extremely irritating term (to mugs like me) for 'Fullrange And Subwoofer Technology.' Quite why subwoofers have suddenly become 'technology' while everything else presumably isn't seems mysterious. There is an alternate translation: 'Fullrange ASisTed' which is as lame an acronym as you're likely to find south of 'PRAT' (give me strength...). As an alternative, you could call them what they always used to be called: a 2-way loudspeaker. Rant over.
As for the array, the 3in version would likely be preferable if the subs can manage 200Hz with some grace, but they'll still need Eq to counter the declining HF trend inherent to the configuration.
As for the array, the 3in version would likely be preferable if the subs can manage 200Hz with some grace, but they'll still need Eq to counter the declining HF trend inherent to the configuration.
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FAST, got it. Indeed , not the best acronym but in this age of Facebook and the likes, we are likely to see more and more!
Hmm.. I just realized the 4" version is 4 Ohms, which may be hard on my receiver at the moment. The 3" is 8 Ohms, so it may be more appropriate.
My subs do not go much over 140Hz, and when I hear subs that do, I feel I can pinpoint them, which is not something I like in a sub because they are not perfectly located next to the main speakers.
Since this is my first foray into line source, I might just do it with the 3" drivers, and see how it goes. There's nothing like hands on experience! Of course, your input is always welcome!
Hmm.. I just realized the 4" version is 4 Ohms, which may be hard on my receiver at the moment. The 3" is 8 Ohms, so it may be more appropriate.
My subs do not go much over 140Hz, and when I hear subs that do, I feel I can pinpoint them, which is not something I like in a sub because they are not perfectly located next to the main speakers.
Since this is my first foray into line source, I might just do it with the 3" drivers, and see how it goes. There's nothing like hands on experience! Of course, your input is always welcome!
Well, I ordered those 3" just before your post, Colin.
Got 16 of them heading their way.
I was wondering, if I wire them as 4-2-2, that'd be ok? that would give me a change from 8 Ohms to 6.4 Ohms... if I got the calculation right!
I would wire the outer 2 drivers up-and-down as the 4, then more power to the center ones as 2-2. In between will be a tweeter... later. I want to test different configurations.
Got 16 of them heading their way.
I was wondering, if I wire them as 4-2-2, that'd be ok? that would give me a change from 8 Ohms to 6.4 Ohms... if I got the calculation right!
I would wire the outer 2 drivers up-and-down as the 4, then more power to the center ones as 2-2. In between will be a tweeter... later. I want to test different configurations.
Here is a project that is underway that might spark your interest as well,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/249762-2-way-line-array-oval-cabinet.html#post3789049
It uses 12 HiVi B3N 3" drivers and 12 tweeters of some buy out types per cabinet,
HiVi B3N 3" Aluminum Driver Round Frame | 297-428
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/249762-2-way-line-array-oval-cabinet.html#post3794305
It will be wired for 6 ohms with a 6.5Khz 12db passive crossover.
The plan is a ported 2 cubic foot enclosure tuned to about 41Hz.
With only 8 drivers it is best to keep the voltage across all of them equal so you are only limited to 4 ohms or 16 ohms.
If you had planned for 9 drivers then you could have 8 ohms per cabinet.
It is too bad that I didn't catch this thread before you ordered them.
The drivers themselves look good though.
I would definitely try them open backed (dipole) First and add separate woofer as suggested.
Although you may/will have to add some EQing to make them flat on the low end.
Your data sheet doesn't state the Xmax that the driver is capable of.
FWIW
jer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/249762-2-way-line-array-oval-cabinet.html#post3789049
It uses 12 HiVi B3N 3" drivers and 12 tweeters of some buy out types per cabinet,
HiVi B3N 3" Aluminum Driver Round Frame | 297-428
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/249762-2-way-line-array-oval-cabinet.html#post3794305
It will be wired for 6 ohms with a 6.5Khz 12db passive crossover.
The plan is a ported 2 cubic foot enclosure tuned to about 41Hz.
With only 8 drivers it is best to keep the voltage across all of them equal so you are only limited to 4 ohms or 16 ohms.
If you had planned for 9 drivers then you could have 8 ohms per cabinet.
It is too bad that I didn't catch this thread before you ordered them.
The drivers themselves look good though.
I would definitely try them open backed (dipole) First and add separate woofer as suggested.
Although you may/will have to add some EQing to make them flat on the low end.
Your data sheet doesn't state the Xmax that the driver is capable of.
FWIW
jer
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Ok, I remember why I went with 8 drivers.
My plan was to use 2 sets of four drivers, with a crossover between them. First set of four (wired 2-2) would handle up to 500Hz, and the other set of four drivers would take over from 500Hz to 3,000Hz and let the tweeter handle anything higher.
Am I correct in assuming that I would be at 8 Ohms?
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