I'm trying to come up with cabinet designs that will provide ultra-wide dispersion on the horizontal plane.
This will be a mono-coaxial driver enclosure. Placed in between a couple of electronic darts machines at a local pub.
The only boundary enforcement will come from the wall directly behind the speaker and from the large dart board machines flanking it on either side.
Otherwise, this is just playing out into a HUGE, wide open bar room.
Thankfully, it'll only be for the darts folks in the immediate vicinity. Such as within 15' max, but from all sides.
Not directly in front of the speaker. As there are five darts machines.
The audio portion will be mostly for listening to live sporting events on the TV.
But occasionally it'll need to handle someone's rock/techno/other MP3 music files delivered over Bluetooth via iPod or whatever.
The driver budget is $20. And the amplifier budget is also about $20. So this is DIY all the way.
Here's the AMP I'm considering:
"12V 60W Hi Fi Stereo Digital Audio Power Amplifier Volume Tone Control Board Kit"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-60W-Hi-...r-Volume-Tone-Control-Board-Kit-/301029437405
Here are a few speakers I'm considering:
"GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" Speaker Pioneer Type B20FU20-51FW"
GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" Speaker Pioneer Type B20FU20-51FW | 292-430
"Goldwood GW-8004 8" Coaxial Speaker"
Goldwood GW-8004 8" Coaxial Speaker | 290-378
"Lowell Model 810 dual cone whizzer 8"
Lowell 810 Speaker Drivers
So far, I'm considering a Karlson Klam or possibly a JBL Scoop.
What do you guys think? Is there a better design out there?
Max dimensions will probably be 48" tall, 11" wide, 20" deep.
The $ budget for speaker & amp is not mine to set.
But the woodworking is my hobby and I'm okay at it. Not scared of challenges. Been there, done that.
This will be a mono-coaxial driver enclosure. Placed in between a couple of electronic darts machines at a local pub.
The only boundary enforcement will come from the wall directly behind the speaker and from the large dart board machines flanking it on either side.
Otherwise, this is just playing out into a HUGE, wide open bar room.
Thankfully, it'll only be for the darts folks in the immediate vicinity. Such as within 15' max, but from all sides.
Not directly in front of the speaker. As there are five darts machines.
The audio portion will be mostly for listening to live sporting events on the TV.
But occasionally it'll need to handle someone's rock/techno/other MP3 music files delivered over Bluetooth via iPod or whatever.
The driver budget is $20. And the amplifier budget is also about $20. So this is DIY all the way.
Here's the AMP I'm considering:
"12V 60W Hi Fi Stereo Digital Audio Power Amplifier Volume Tone Control Board Kit"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-60W-Hi-...r-Volume-Tone-Control-Board-Kit-/301029437405
Here are a few speakers I'm considering:
"GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" Speaker Pioneer Type B20FU20-51FW"
GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" Speaker Pioneer Type B20FU20-51FW | 292-430
"Goldwood GW-8004 8" Coaxial Speaker"
Goldwood GW-8004 8" Coaxial Speaker | 290-378
"Lowell Model 810 dual cone whizzer 8"
Lowell 810 Speaker Drivers
So far, I'm considering a Karlson Klam or possibly a JBL Scoop.
What do you guys think? Is there a better design out there?
Max dimensions will probably be 48" tall, 11" wide, 20" deep.
The $ budget for speaker & amp is not mine to set.
But the woodworking is my hobby and I'm okay at it. Not scared of challenges. Been there, done that.
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Unless you are designing a horn, it's more determined by the drivers than the cabinet...
If you use smaller diameter (e.g. 4"-5") "fullrange" type drivers, you can just plop them in a shallow cabinet and use the rest of the space to augment the low end with a larger driver. The smaller driver will have good dispersion, and the larger one will fill in the bass.
If you want to use a single driver, you could think about a t-line. This is a very nice sounding one:
The Metronome
If you use smaller diameter (e.g. 4"-5") "fullrange" type drivers, you can just plop them in a shallow cabinet and use the rest of the space to augment the low end with a larger driver. The smaller driver will have good dispersion, and the larger one will fill in the bass.
If you want to use a single driver, you could think about a t-line. This is a very nice sounding one:
The Metronome
If you want wide dispersion go with smaller drivers as 8 in full range will 'beam'. With that said, if you put it in Karlsonator cabinet the dispersion will be improved.
My suggestion is to go with a dual Vifa TC9FD in a 0.53x Karlsonator. Drivers will be $20 to $24 a pair. For the amp, I suggest the TPA3116D2 - amp is $15. Both of these have their own extensive thread so check it out. The 0.53x Karlsonator with those drivers can get pretty loud as they are now 91dB efficient at 2.83v. I have driven them up to 14 volts rms (about 50 watts which is 105 dB) and it is loud but without distortion. The dispersion has also been measured and is very uniform and wide - almost 90 deg.
The 0.53x Karlsonator hits 60 Hz easily and sounds very even and works for all kinds of music.
My suggestion is to go with a dual Vifa TC9FD in a 0.53x Karlsonator. Drivers will be $20 to $24 a pair. For the amp, I suggest the TPA3116D2 - amp is $15. Both of these have their own extensive thread so check it out. The 0.53x Karlsonator with those drivers can get pretty loud as they are now 91dB efficient at 2.83v. I have driven them up to 14 volts rms (about 50 watts which is 105 dB) and it is loud but without distortion. The dispersion has also been measured and is very uniform and wide - almost 90 deg.
The 0.53x Karlsonator hits 60 Hz easily and sounds very even and works for all kinds of music.
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Thanks for the quick & good responses, guys!
I do like horns.
I'll have to google the Metronome some more. At first glance it looks a bit wider than I'm able to go, but I haven't yet seen the actual dimensions or any build plans.
I forgot about beaming. Thanks for bringing that up.
Have *always* wanted to build a Karlsonator. I may have to go that route!
The Vifa are just barely in budget, so do-able.
But with the small drivers, were you able to get decent midbass at 105db?
I know the Karlsonator is reputed to have tons of midbass, but that was with larger drivers.
EDIT: I found your build thread and will check it out!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
I do like horns.
I'll have to google the Metronome some more. At first glance it looks a bit wider than I'm able to go, but I haven't yet seen the actual dimensions or any build plans.
I forgot about beaming. Thanks for bringing that up.
Have *always* wanted to build a Karlsonator. I may have to go that route!
The Vifa are just barely in budget, so do-able.
But with the small drivers, were you able to get decent midbass at 105db?
I know the Karlsonator is reputed to have tons of midbass, but that was with larger drivers.
EDIT: I found your build thread and will check it out!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
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Hi,
$20 for the driver, $20 for the amplifier and you want
to drive a large (huge) space with wide dispersion ?
You need a serious reality check. A tall multidriver column
is what is needed to beam vertically giving better throw.
You will need a lot more power. A double column with
a 60 to 90 degree front baffle if on axis is not wanted
as stated. Minimum is just two angled drivers, but
they will have very poor throw, and won't work well.
rgds, sreten.
$20 for the driver, $20 for the amplifier and you want
to drive a large (huge) space with wide dispersion ?
You need a serious reality check. A tall multidriver column
is what is needed to beam vertically giving better throw.
You will need a lot more power. A double column with
a 60 to 90 degree front baffle if on axis is not wanted
as stated. Minimum is just two angled drivers, but
they will have very poor throw, and won't work well.
rgds, sreten.
Yes, the room is quite huge.
BUT, the intended audience are all within 15' of the speaker.
With the majority being within 10'.
We do not care about anything outside of the 15' target area.
Vertically?
The intended audience are either standing up or sitting on tall bar stools.
So vertical target is maybe 30 degrees at between 4.5' and 6.5' above ground. Not much to worry about there.
Horizontal audience target area is about 5' - 15' from the speaker, with the sweet spot being 7' distance from the speaker and about 10' wide.
I don't think we'll need clean 105db at the 15' mark.
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Hi,
There is no middle to 5 darts machines an the best option would
2 speakers between 1&2 and 4&5. Forget hifi stuff, this is PA.
Two columns using these is probably your best bet :
4" Paper Cone Midrange Speaker 8 Ohm A0100008FP06DA-C | 289-133
8 per column wired for 4 ohms will work with a 20W / channel T-amp.
The Lepai amplifiers spring to mind. 8 should give about 100dB/W,
and good throw, i.e. apparently even more at a distance.
Sealed column, well stuffed, about 0.4 cuft internal for 8 drivers.
rgds, sreten.
Some advantage to rolling off the input of the amplifier, say
-3dB at 150Hz to 250Hz by increasing the input capacitor.
Needless to say mount the column center at ear height.
If you don't understand how columns work I suggest you read up.
Control of vertical dispersion gives greater throw with wide horizontal
dispersion, look at the sound systems in train stations. The throw
collapses at wavelengths longer than the speaker is tall, so there
is not point trying to attempt any real bass, it simply won't work.
Hence the to a hifi person the high Fs and Qts of the suggested driver,
might seem very wrong, in reality for 32" column they are near ideal.
There is no middle to 5 darts machines an the best option would
2 speakers between 1&2 and 4&5. Forget hifi stuff, this is PA.
Two columns using these is probably your best bet :
4" Paper Cone Midrange Speaker 8 Ohm A0100008FP06DA-C | 289-133
8 per column wired for 4 ohms will work with a 20W / channel T-amp.
The Lepai amplifiers spring to mind. 8 should give about 100dB/W,
and good throw, i.e. apparently even more at a distance.
Sealed column, well stuffed, about 0.4 cuft internal for 8 drivers.
rgds, sreten.
Some advantage to rolling off the input of the amplifier, say
-3dB at 150Hz to 250Hz by increasing the input capacitor.
Needless to say mount the column center at ear height.
If you don't understand how columns work I suggest you read up.
Control of vertical dispersion gives greater throw with wide horizontal
dispersion, look at the sound systems in train stations. The throw
collapses at wavelengths longer than the speaker is tall, so there
is not point trying to attempt any real bass, it simply won't work.
Hence the to a hifi person the high Fs and Qts of the suggested driver,
might seem very wrong, in reality for 32" column they are near ideal.
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I don't think we'll need clean 105db at the 15' mark.
Hi,
True, but you haven't a hope in hell of achieving that and
have no idea about the coverage characteristics of PA stuff.
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
Clearly it won't do music, TV, sports very well at all. but neither will
the other ideas. You need to add powered PA cabinets for below
around 200Hz, or feed that signal to other speakers that are
driving the total huge space in the bass area.
TBH without knowing the total acoustic requirements of the
complete huge space its very hard to work out whats needed.
I'm just guessing based on some assumptions and your
miniscule budget the best way of approaching the problem,
which isn't a mini karlsonator that might do 60Hz in a small
room, with two tiny drivers hopelessly lost in a huge room.
rgds, sreten.
To put it in some perspective, what I'm suggesting will be
about equivalent to some basic external computer speakers
sat at a computer. Like those a sub is needed for real bass.
But with low power and a small budget not much choice.
They will slaughter any other very budget option, simply
because they are designed for this very budget purpose.
Clearly it won't do music, TV, sports very well at all. but neither will
the other ideas. You need to add powered PA cabinets for below
around 200Hz, or feed that signal to other speakers that are
driving the total huge space in the bass area.
TBH without knowing the total acoustic requirements of the
complete huge space its very hard to work out whats needed.
I'm just guessing based on some assumptions and your
miniscule budget the best way of approaching the problem,
which isn't a mini karlsonator that might do 60Hz in a small
room, with two tiny drivers hopelessly lost in a huge room.
rgds, sreten.
To put it in some perspective, what I'm suggesting will be
about equivalent to some basic external computer speakers
sat at a computer. Like those a sub is needed for real bass.
But with low power and a small budget not much choice.
They will slaughter any other very budget option, simply
because they are designed for this very budget purpose.
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I hear what you're saying.
Unfortunately though, a subwoofer, or woofer, would both require much additional funds.
I wish they had the budget for some Econowaves.
What about a mono line array across the top of the TV screens?
Honestly, you really only need response down to about 80-100Hz and up to 12-15kHz. Put a bunch of inexpensive 4" drivers in a row and hook up series parallel to get a practical impedance. Don't over think or overspend for a noisy bar. It just has to make some noise.
Another possibility is a few of these $15 Vifa coaxials listed here:
Speaker Stuff
4L per driver with a port. There is no crossover, but you can have a single crossover connected to series/parallel tweeters and series/parallel woofers. Put four (series parallel) or six (three in parallel, in series) and put above TV screens pointed downwards at throwing area.
Another option is to hang something from the ceiling pointing down above the throwing area. This will definitely limit the sound to the immediate area.
Honestly, you really only need response down to about 80-100Hz and up to 12-15kHz. Put a bunch of inexpensive 4" drivers in a row and hook up series parallel to get a practical impedance. Don't over think or overspend for a noisy bar. It just has to make some noise.
Another possibility is a few of these $15 Vifa coaxials listed here:
Speaker Stuff
4L per driver with a port. There is no crossover, but you can have a single crossover connected to series/parallel tweeters and series/parallel woofers. Put four (series parallel) or six (three in parallel, in series) and put above TV screens pointed downwards at throwing area.
Another option is to hang something from the ceiling pointing down above the throwing area. This will definitely limit the sound to the immediate area.
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Well, maybe something like this $5 6.5" midbass in some kind of horn enclosure.
Then just use a passive lowpass filter and wire them right along with a tower of eight 4" drivers.
Not sure how I'd handle the lower sensitivity of the midbass though.
6-1/2" Poly Cone Woofer 4 Ohm | 299-609
Those 6.5 in polycone woofers are really nice for the price. Even in an open baffle they will reach 60 Hz. They need a cheap piezo or Mylar some tweeter at the top though as there is not much above 3khz. I have these and they are quite good. I use them in the Nautaloss sub woofer in push pull isobaric sealed chamber. I also have them in a MLTL paired with a piezo tweeter.
I think that will require more "permanent" type mounting which we don't have permission for.
Absolutely! -3db at 80hz would be just fine.
Ahh, but it was my idea to add speakers and it took some time to talk the bar manager into allowing it.
Besides, planning/researching is half the fun and I look at it as an opportunity to build something I normally wouldn't.
So I want to do the absolute best and coolest idea with the extremely limited budget I was given.
THANK YOU.
I'd lost my link to that site long ago.
Funny, many of those drivers there today were there like 3 years ago also.
I hadn't thought about this and really like the idea! It would solve a few problems.
But unfortunately it's a big "no".
The Manager prefers a somewhat "out-of-sight and easily removable" installation.
Good to know!
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Xrk971, are you a member at the fullrangedriver.com forum? It seems to be closed to new membership right now and I'm interested in researching the Pioneer B20/Bofu/K8 enclosure combo.
The GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" for $15 seems to be an identical match to the Pioneer B20.
GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" Speaker Pioneer Type B20FU20-51FW | 292-430
The GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" for $15 seems to be an identical match to the Pioneer B20.
GRS 8FR-8 Full-Range 8" Speaker Pioneer Type B20FU20-51FW | 292-430
I've not owned the Goldwood BOFU but from what have seen, its qts may range from ~0.85 to over 1. In a classic K8, this would peak around 110Hz - which might be OK assuming its elevated. A Goodwood KSN1142 clone piezo driver could be used on a 1.5" pvc K-tube for a tweeter if desired or just go with a KSN1005 clone. Visaton's BG20 is a nice driver but at ~$27, out of your budget. A klam probably would have to be a bit higher than the listening plane and might not have as good horizontal dispersion as the regular Karlson.
you could make the coupler a "bit" larger than a factory K8- a faster flare might be good for the wings in either case.
sreten's idea for a mini tower looks cheap and cheerful
Visaton BG20-8 8" Full-Range Speaker with Whizzer Cone | 292-548
you could make the coupler a "bit" larger than a factory K8- a faster flare might be good for the wings in either case.
sreten's idea for a mini tower looks cheap and cheerful
Visaton BG20-8 8" Full-Range Speaker with Whizzer Cone | 292-548
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