That does sound simple, you did not go through all the trouble to put a shelf filter or EQ to compensate for the -6dB falloff for an open baffle woofer, and I assume you are running the 12LTA full range? I bet it sounds great.
lt12
I agree with godzilla. I also used eminence on open baffle but added a visaton horn loaded tweeter in the middle and the sound has huge scale and also finesse but I had to cross much lower as I got rid of the wheezer long time ago (around 5-6kHz). I regret doing that as the driver was not fully broken in-this PA drivers need ages to be broken by a mere home SPL levels. I had Fostex 103 and FE166 and 206E in front horn and on the open baffle but the solidity of eminence wasn´t matched. There is something about beliveable sound that comes from eminence. I am now going to try some planars as I never heard them (Bohlender Graebener Neo10 Planar) and some big woof on the open baffle. I never get fully satisfied with FR on large pieces of music especially where the big swings of loud/quiet are going on (some OST music and classical). But some good 8 or 10" driver with tweeter and helping bass driver should also do the trick. Anyway I also prefer rigid (accordion) suspension on the drivers.
happy experiment...as it ever is
!!
T
I agree with godzilla. I also used eminence on open baffle but added a visaton horn loaded tweeter in the middle and the sound has huge scale and also finesse but I had to cross much lower as I got rid of the wheezer long time ago (around 5-6kHz). I regret doing that as the driver was not fully broken in-this PA drivers need ages to be broken by a mere home SPL levels. I had Fostex 103 and FE166 and 206E in front horn and on the open baffle but the solidity of eminence wasn´t matched. There is something about beliveable sound that comes from eminence. I am now going to try some planars as I never heard them (Bohlender Graebener Neo10 Planar) and some big woof on the open baffle. I never get fully satisfied with FR on large pieces of music especially where the big swings of loud/quiet are going on (some OST music and classical). But some good 8 or 10" driver with tweeter and helping bass driver should also do the trick. Anyway I also prefer rigid (accordion) suspension on the drivers.
happy experiment...as it ever is
!!
T
Very interesting. It was reading about John Wykoff's Super 12 that got me back on this road in the first place. Different driver, obviously, but similar concept.
John
Has its uses, providing you know how the manufacturer defines Xmax. There is no one standard to which they all adhere, and the multiple different methods can and usually do / would give different numbers for the same driver, with obvious consequences for any formula employing it. I'd treat this like EBP -a rough guide only, unless you have the specific information for the unit in question.
>>> Very interesting. It was reading about John Wykoff's Super 12 that got me back on this road in the first place. Different driver, obviously, but similar concept.
Yes, John's speaker design offers excellent bang for the buck... maybe the best!
Here I used the 12lta in a 2.5cf sealed box and was unhappy with the results. In this box it just didn't produce enough bass to round out the sound. My sims indicated a 3.5cf box minimum but I built and hoped for the best because I just didn't want larger boxes. I scrapped the project (tho I still have the boxes in storage) and moved onto open baffle. The 12lta on an open baffle works great! It gets down to 150Hz on a 19" wide baffle to mate with a sub easily. It sounds better with dustcap tweaks and needs a tweeter. Overall, it's a very robust, full, dynamic sounding speaker that will spoil you for anything less. But it needs to be a 3-way.
The TB 1808 (along with the other drivers mentioned) has merit because it can be used alone without any help from other drivers. I put it into small sealed boxes but my sims indicate a box twice as large works better. I knew I would use a sub so kept the boxes small. It's an excellent overall sound and the speaker is able to produce vocals with great realism. That's its strong suit. Everything sounds natural and detailed but with a bit of a forward lower midrange push. I like it very much but it's not a perfectly flat sound. It's nicely colored. The sealed cabinet plus sub doesn't create as much 'jump factor' as the back horns or BIBs I've built for different drivers (Fostex) but the 1808 is less veiled and if I spent the time (and had the space) for the boxes it required to sound its best I bet it would please for sure. It's a TRUE fullrange driver IMO - it gets down to 50Hz and goes all the way up to 20,000kHz. I do not feel it requires a tweeter even tho I used one as you will see in the pic. Amazing!
But one 8" driver has its limitations and all of the 8" Hall of Famers will suffer similar setbacks when it comes to ultimate sound. Overall, the 1808 is quite an amazing driver and a great purchase. In the right box it may prove unbeatable with the caveat that low powered amps are all that will drive it properly without destroying it.
I expect to enjoy this driver for many years in a small to medium sized room with a small, pure sounding amp. For me, based on my needs, this is how it operates best.
Yes, John's speaker design offers excellent bang for the buck... maybe the best!
Here I used the 12lta in a 2.5cf sealed box and was unhappy with the results. In this box it just didn't produce enough bass to round out the sound. My sims indicated a 3.5cf box minimum but I built and hoped for the best because I just didn't want larger boxes. I scrapped the project (tho I still have the boxes in storage) and moved onto open baffle. The 12lta on an open baffle works great! It gets down to 150Hz on a 19" wide baffle to mate with a sub easily. It sounds better with dustcap tweaks and needs a tweeter. Overall, it's a very robust, full, dynamic sounding speaker that will spoil you for anything less. But it needs to be a 3-way.
The TB 1808 (along with the other drivers mentioned) has merit because it can be used alone without any help from other drivers. I put it into small sealed boxes but my sims indicate a box twice as large works better. I knew I would use a sub so kept the boxes small. It's an excellent overall sound and the speaker is able to produce vocals with great realism. That's its strong suit. Everything sounds natural and detailed but with a bit of a forward lower midrange push. I like it very much but it's not a perfectly flat sound. It's nicely colored. The sealed cabinet plus sub doesn't create as much 'jump factor' as the back horns or BIBs I've built for different drivers (Fostex) but the 1808 is less veiled and if I spent the time (and had the space) for the boxes it required to sound its best I bet it would please for sure. It's a TRUE fullrange driver IMO - it gets down to 50Hz and goes all the way up to 20,000kHz. I do not feel it requires a tweeter even tho I used one as you will see in the pic. Amazing!
But one 8" driver has its limitations and all of the 8" Hall of Famers will suffer similar setbacks when it comes to ultimate sound. Overall, the 1808 is quite an amazing driver and a great purchase. In the right box it may prove unbeatable with the caveat that low powered amps are all that will drive it properly without destroying it.
I expect to enjoy this driver for many years in a small to medium sized room with a small, pure sounding amp. For me, based on my needs, this is how it operates best.
Attachments
>>> isnt the eminence maybe less detailed then the TB?
It is. You don't hear all of the little things in the music as well as with the TB - which is very detailed. The advantage of the 12lta is the SIZE of SCALE it produces in your home. It's a pro driver being force fit into a room in your house. It's a bit of a beast. When you hear it you begin wondering about better quality pro drivers. But I think the 12lta just happens to work due to its compromises. It's sort of a weak pro driver but it's Hercules compared to the home drivers we're accustomed to.
Sorry, I didn't mean to take the focus away from 8" drivers. But I understand why someone would want to use an 8" over a smaller cone. It's all the same reasons the 12lta works for me. But that doesn't mean smaller cones are incapable of extremely good sound. I am going to setup my 12lta and 1808 and directly compare them over the next few days and report back.
It is. You don't hear all of the little things in the music as well as with the TB - which is very detailed. The advantage of the 12lta is the SIZE of SCALE it produces in your home. It's a pro driver being force fit into a room in your house. It's a bit of a beast. When you hear it you begin wondering about better quality pro drivers. But I think the 12lta just happens to work due to its compromises. It's sort of a weak pro driver but it's Hercules compared to the home drivers we're accustomed to.
Sorry, I didn't mean to take the focus away from 8" drivers. But I understand why someone would want to use an 8" over a smaller cone. It's all the same reasons the 12lta works for me. But that doesn't mean smaller cones are incapable of extremely good sound. I am going to setup my 12lta and 1808 and directly compare them over the next few days and report back.
12LTA is a pro driver in sensitivity but not in overall dynamics nor thermal ability - it has 0.08" overhang which is good in ways but to my ears subjectively compresses despite a high xmax raring compared to Eminence's 12" coax with 80 and 109oz magnets. Beta 10cx can sometimes outpoint 12LTA for dynamics. 12LTA would work pretty well in the original Karlson K15 - moreso than a reflex.. I paid $39.95 ea.for my last pair of 12LTA and they were a bargain. The smallest Karlson-type coupler for 12LTA which would function would have about 2 cubic foot rear chamber and 1 cubic foot front chamber.
W8-1772's cone is better damped than 206EN and more like a competent 2-way in tonallity - but I sometimes prefer 206EN for its higher sensitivty and life.
W8-1772's cone is better damped than 206EN and more like a competent 2-way in tonallity - but I sometimes prefer 206EN for its higher sensitivty and life.
of course I understand, there noting like a big driver making the sound!
I'm a all PA three-way guy!
my 8" fullrange driver pile of recent only includes:w-8-1772, FE206EN, BG20, AN8 stamped frame, Panasonic "metal" and BetsyK - how does the new Nirvana Classic 8 sans whizzer stack up? BG20 deserves note for US$ price vs sound and is better overall than BU20/BOFU. I'm a coaxial fan but appreciate FR overall.
I don't think coaxials count in a survey such as this thread which is meant to judge relative merits of 8 inch single voice coil drivers - that's not to say coaxial don't fare as well or better overall than 8" fullrange. I use 10, 12 and 15 cx with various brand compression drivers - can't remember how Beta 8cx did - might wire up a pair with Peavey RX14 Danley uses B&C 8cx so those must be competent. I've got an old SK58 Japanese Lafayette brand coax and it has gorgeous vocal quality - probably better than any of my 8" FR - maybe its doing something wrong that I like - lol
Last edited:
Has anyone tried these? I've been admiring them but haven't ponied up the cash yet.
Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver | 295-346
Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver | 295-346
the audio nirvana super 8 cast frame is about the same price and IMO a lot better sounding. its far less peaky and has a more balanced sound with far more detail.
that's the classic, i was referring to the one with the whizzer.
those frequency graphs are pretty accurate but not sure about the t/s like. he's the impedance sweep from my ones before i sold them (still have the neo 8's) and the bumps are pretty much in the same places.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Last edited:
Recent build
I recently built an open baffle using the Eminence 12" Beta 12LTA and Alpha 15A. The 15A was put into a design roughly based on Martin King 15" H-Frame. Instead of the H-Frame I used an 18" concrete pier form. I put a horn in but it really is not needed. Having said that if I did it again I would put in a better tweet.
Really I could not be happier. I kicked my old Magnepans out and they will be going on craigslist soon.
I noticed you mentioned 18" speakers. Martin King also has an H-Frame design for 18" woofers. I think I will be making a system using them next.
Anyway, this speaker proves you don't need to throw money at something to have good sound. You might also look at poultrygeist post as I modeled my speakers after his.
I recently built an open baffle using the Eminence 12" Beta 12LTA and Alpha 15A. The 15A was put into a design roughly based on Martin King 15" H-Frame. Instead of the H-Frame I used an 18" concrete pier form. I put a horn in but it really is not needed. Having said that if I did it again I would put in a better tweet.
Really I could not be happier. I kicked my old Magnepans out and they will be going on craigslist soon.
I noticed you mentioned 18" speakers. Martin King also has an H-Frame design for 18" woofers. I think I will be making a system using them next.
Anyway, this speaker proves you don't need to throw money at something to have good sound. You might also look at poultrygeist post as I modeled my speakers after his.
my stamped frame Nirvana Super 8 (unlike my Super 10) had T-S parameters reasonably close to pubished data.
here's a Fostex 206EN vs the stamped frame Nirvana Super 8, both on axis/in-room and mounted in a Druid-sized enclosure -
AN8 has superior high frequency extension, FE206EN has a meatier midrange
here's one of the last of the Pioneer BOFU vs FE206EN under the same conditions
- there's ~15dB more output on axis with the 206 - 206 has a 2K6 spike which adds some bite
here's a Fostex 206EN vs the stamped frame Nirvana Super 8, both on axis/in-room and mounted in a Druid-sized enclosure -
AN8 has superior high frequency extension, FE206EN has a meatier midrange
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
re's ion
here's one of the last of the Pioneer BOFU vs FE206EN under the same conditions
- there's ~15dB more output on axis with the 206 - 206 has a 2K6 spike which adds some bite
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Last edited:
re: Goldwood GW1858 in H-frame - one or two per side and biamped could make a good helper for 12LTA - I ran cheap 21" woofers with 12LTA on open baffle but felt the tone wasn't good and perhaps the Pyle's mms too much. GW1858 is a bit ripe but FWIW, I think its low moving mass may be a plus.
12LTA by itself with OB was far too weak for my tastes since I'm accustomed to Karlson loading.
12LTA by itself with OB was far too weak for my tastes since I'm accustomed to Karlson loading.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.