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The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)
The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:00 AM   #5351
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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I like the idea of more cone area, less excursion, more box volume, less power to reach the same end. Not everyone can make that work though.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:22 AM   #5352
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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I was just about to ask a question to haraldo,

To me, a sub like the Paradigm (except for bragging rights) only makes sense if you plan to use it somewhat free-standing.

I'd rather have the same amount of drivers in separate enclosures (or a line) to be able to play with placement separately.

I agree that the sub used probably isn't like the Scan Speaks, I just mentioned the 26W as the 32W got so much attention from haraldo. The 26W and 30W share a similar pedigree of the 32W. Not saying they are the same, but just look at cone size and their weight shows they are alike.

If the Paradigm uses roughly 216 litre...
Sticking the 26W in a 25 litre box per driver would get you a Q of 0,703.
I don't think that's such a bad starting point for DSP. 6 x 25L = 150L
Leaving enough space for driver volume, electronics and bracing.

A total cone area of 2112 cm² from these 6 drivers, in comparison the B&C SW115-4 has 1210 cm².

Don't underestimate multiples . That's why I figure it would be a feasible option.

The Scan Speak has 12.5 mm x-max, the B&C 14 mm, which one will move more air (or need less cone movement)?
(quick figures in WinISD for 6 drivers is 105 dB at 20 Hz max, before room gain for 6x 26W, I think in room would
see more than that. I did say you'd probably go deaf before hearing the limits)


The 32w would have 3156 cm² of cone area and either 14 mm (heavy cone) or 7 mm (light cone) of x-max.

All in all I think that even the 26W, used like that would be "impressive".
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Last edited by wesayso; 23rd November 2019 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:55 AM   #5353
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BYRTT View Post
Thanks educate us what that LEAP curve is about, imagine LEAP simulation is then based on the Klippel test data input and then think it should be taken serious for comparisons, think weapon to fight that distortion is as wesayso did suggest me in past via PM, think he write me something as "if you need some certain area and stroke for the woofer job right then why not take 4-10 times as much and get superior performance down there" ...... and he is probably right if cone hardly will move we can bypass that LEAP curve reality.
I'm still all for that, even though I do not get to practise that as well as I would like. There's no replacement for displacement.

The Paradigm is interesting, because it's rather small yet very powerful and a sealed alignment. I was shocked to see those dimensions. I bet it is fun to have two of those .
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:08 AM   #5354
Robbintip is online now Robbintip  Netherlands
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You mentioned you have a dropped ceiling.
11.340 liters of space approximately
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:12 AM   #5355
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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I'm not ready yet to let this house collapse due to playing bass sine sweeps .
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:27 AM   #5356
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Thinking about it a little longer, with a bit more processing you can make it a cardioid sub.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:34 AM   #5357
BYRTT is online now BYRTT  Denmark
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The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post

I'm still all for that, even though I do not get to practise that as well as I would like. There's no replacement for displacement....
Honestly your arrays did perform top notch and very realistic for music as i heard it the twice visit to Assen, maybe movies is lacking as youself sometimes say, i can't know about that in we listened to various normal music genre and that wasn't lacking anything below 500Hz at the recommended 84-86dB SPL. One would probably always want it louder than the 84-86dB level because your system really sounds so clean and well ballanced, but i'm not shure that is a good idea tonality wise if its right recordings are mastered with the equal loudness curve optimized to happen at the recommended 84-86dB SPL, then we want a reverse equal loudness EQ curve to set in whenever we go louder than the standard SPL recommentation.

Also if i plot your room with three boundary's and 50% pressurization gain i get below, red is ZAPH audio TC9 curve, blue is red ZAPH curve times room curve one transducer in the middle of the row for your left side array black is 20Hz-20kHz target, and green is your new sub at left side (room curve times a 37Hz f3). Of course we boys often like to exaggerate when it comes to speakers but you should be more than good at 86dB spl.

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Old 23rd November 2019, 04:44 AM   #5358
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
I'd rather have the same amount of drivers in separate enclosures (or a line) to be able to play with placement separately.
Me too

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
If the Paradigm uses roughly 216 litre...
Sticking the 26W in a 25 litre box per driver would get you a Q of 0,703.
I don't think that's such a bad starting point for DSP. 6 x 25L = 150L
Leaving enough space for driver volume, electronics and bracing.
The 216 was a square of the longest dimensions so certainly much less than that as available volume. The Hexagon is a nice shape and the force cancelling aspect is interesting. 150l plus drivers and bracing would end up being a fair bit bigger. Quite doable and would be good with the 26W. The box could be shrunk but you end up using more power and excursion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
A total cone area of 2112 cm² from these 6 drivers, in comparison the B&C SW115-4 has 1210 cm

Don't underestimate multiples . That's why I figure it would be a feasible option.
I don't and it is quite a feasible option

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
The Scan Speak has 12.5 mm x-max, the B&C 14 mm, which one will move more air (or need less cone movement)?
(quick figures in WinISD for 6 drivers is 105 dB at 20 Hz max, before room gain for 6x 26W, I think in room would
see more than that. I did say you'd probably go deaf before hearing the limits)


The 32w would have 3156 cm² of cone area and either 14 mm (heavy cone) or 7 mm (light cone) of x-max.

All in all I think that even the 26W, used like that would be "impressive".
That is where it is good to look at the klippel data. Most drivers are limited by their compliance more so than their excursion. That is also what is shown in those voltage simulations before. The B&C is very linear throughout it's entire travel, most hifi drivers are not, so you can't really compare xmax as a figure without considering the rest of the driver. For volume displacement purposes it works but it tells you nothing about how linear that volume will be displaced. Linear excursion on a spec sheet is very misleading as most of it will be anything but linear as the klippel will show.

That's where a simulation can be helpful to show what sort of excursion will be needed from the multiple drivers to match the single well designed big one. If that keeps the excursion low enough then the balance will swing back to the multiples.

If price is a consideration, the B&C can be had for 383 Euro's including tax, I think 6 x 26W's would be quite a bit more. But harlado was talking about 6 32W's so I don't think cost is an issue
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Old 23rd November 2019, 11:04 AM   #5359
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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I do believe you would not need to get anywhere near the limits with a sub like that 6x 26W. I'm also sure there are other solutions to get there.

Another question, when are you buying that B&C? Looks like you're in love .

Haraldo may buy the 6x 32W, wear ear plugs all the time and bring down his house if he wants to, I merely suggested the 26W as a competent alternative that can already do crazy things at budget price compared to the 32W.

Keep in mind Robbintip has 16x Peerless XXLS P835037 to satisfy his needs....

I do believe I'll be more than fine with just 2x 30W added to my arrays. As BYRTT demonstrated, room gain may add more than enough for a 84-86 dB average playback. I restrict my levels anyway as in the early days of running the array's I could not 'hear' how loud it was. If it's clean, it's very easy to overdo volume levels. I'm known to have long listening sessions, I want to keep my hearing in tact for the years to come.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 11:12 AM   #5360
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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I'd only bother with lots of separate subs to increase the bass sweet spot, it means more wires to be accommodated
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