I put the X talk speakers in opposite phase directly below the main ambient speakers trying to get the drivers as close as possible.
In the attachment, ORANGE is the ambient speaker alone, GREEN with the X talk speaker added. I am getting some cancellation below about 470hz. Despite being out of phase and right next to each other, they are additive above this.
I suppose a true R-L would negate everything in a sine sweep right? I do think this configuration sounds the best so far. Does anyone think I need a truer R-L or will this work? I suppose <470hz covers most of the fundamental vocal range.
In the attachment, ORANGE is the ambient speaker alone, GREEN with the X talk speaker added. I am getting some cancellation below about 470hz. Despite being out of phase and right next to each other, they are additive above this.
I suppose a true R-L would negate everything in a sine sweep right? I do think this configuration sounds the best so far. Does anyone think I need a truer R-L or will this work? I suppose <470hz covers most of the fundamental vocal range.
Attachments
Indeed, that's what we were talking about. That picture comes close to what I'm doing, the delayed and band limited difference signals from a ~120 degree angle.
I use it this way to create a sense of space, which also improves the front stage. I'll experiment with pure difference signals soon. I ended up mixing a bit of center in because the tonality of the sides changed a bit. The center should sound the same in tonality to the sides. I currently have a 200 to 3500 Hz band pass but I'll try and run it a bit higher up. Just to see what happens, I've done it before, just not with the current reverb signal.
Your "tail" does come from the sides, but in timing it's more like a back signal i.m.h.o. As the side signals usually are a bit earlier in time. I wouldn't know if this can work coming from that direction. At least it will be more de-correlated.
I use it this way to create a sense of space, which also improves the front stage. I'll experiment with pure difference signals soon. I ended up mixing a bit of center in because the tonality of the sides changed a bit. The center should sound the same in tonality to the sides. I currently have a 200 to 3500 Hz band pass but I'll try and run it a bit higher up. Just to see what happens, I've done it before, just not with the current reverb signal.
Your "tail" does come from the sides, but in timing it's more like a back signal i.m.h.o. As the side signals usually are a bit earlier in time. I wouldn't know if this can work coming from that direction. At least it will be more de-correlated.
My guess is this will be quite close. It doesn't matter if some phantom center is still there, but it will be way more de-correlated than the pure L or R and better than the more mono signal by having L+R on each side, aside from the difference in level.
Good to read this is somewhat working. I figure you have some phantom center leakage but that will make sure the tonality of that front stage will be more equal from left to center to right.
Do you play both equally loud (the left and minus right)?
As I am not native English speaking it's hard for me to answer with any certainty.
If you look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decorrelation
It suggests that the signal should be different enough from the main channels signal to not link them directly. At least that's how I interpreted it. Diffusion will help there.
Correlated pink noise is mimicking a mono signal, uncorrelated is stereo where both signals are random and not related. Decorrelated is different enough from those two I guess
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If you look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decorrelation
It suggests that the signal should be different enough from the main channels signal to not link them directly. At least that's how I interpreted it. Diffusion will help there.
Correlated pink noise is mimicking a mono signal, uncorrelated is stereo where both signals are random and not related. Decorrelated is different enough from those two I guess
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another griesinger ppt that might be relevant to recent posts http://www.davidgriesinger.com/surround_from_stereo2.ppt
it also talks about decorrelation in some details which might help explain what it means
it also talks about decorrelation in some details which might help explain what it means
Thanks for posting, that man shure has done a lot of presentations on this subject .
Just to try, I removed the phantom center info from my ambient signal today.
It wasn't bad at all! I kind of liked it. Not as I recall at all, maybe the added reverb is helping here. I also played with the upper band pass, moving it up to 7 KHz. That didn't work as long. It made me more aware of the signal coming from the back. Moving it down to 5.5 KHz helped. It could very well be an SPL peak that was bothering me, it only showed up on one side (a side that get's changed with the way accessories are displayed by the significant other, that probably changes the spectrum as well).
I like the envelopment, I'm not quite there yet... I think...
This stuff has a remarkable influence on how we hear things. How do you know when it's right.
One thing to notice: again a mention of that song by Jenifer Warnes, Bird on a Wire, the tech (Geoff) responsible for the current B&O Beolab 90 also used that one as an example.
.Just to try, I removed the phantom center info from my ambient signal today.
It wasn't bad at all! I kind of liked it. Not as I recall at all, maybe the added reverb is helping here. I also played with the upper band pass, moving it up to 7 KHz. That didn't work as long. It made me more aware of the signal coming from the back. Moving it down to 5.5 KHz helped. It could very well be an SPL peak that was bothering me, it only showed up on one side (a side that get's changed with the way accessories are displayed by the significant other
, that probably changes the spectrum as well).I like the envelopment, I'm not quite there yet... I think...
This stuff has a remarkable influence on how we hear things. How do you know when it's right
.One thing to notice: again a mention of that song by Jenifer Warnes, Bird on a Wire, the tech (Geoff) responsible for the current B&O Beolab 90 also used that one as an example.
This stuff has a remarkable influence on how we hear things. How do you know when it's right
I suppose the answer is akin to determining which classical venue has the best sound. In a sense, what the ambient parameters do is allow us to simulate different listening environments. Like great concert halls, it may be less about which is best or correct, but rather which do we like best.
On the other hand, its certainly possible to do ambience completely wrong. Even destroy or subtract from what the mains are doing.
So as long as we avoid the later (doing it wrong), we are working with variations of correct. Here is where I suspect subjectivity starts to take over the decision making/evaluation process.
While some answers can be found in the data, I think listening comparisons with our systems ambience contributions both off and on will reveal the most.
On the technical side, I think we need to pay attention to the spectra, delay and magnitude of our ambient contributions as well as how its scattering or breaking up (DE-corralating?) in time. When the spectra arrives varies a bit with frequency in my case. But most importantly IMO, is how it interacts with the direct. You and I have an addition interaction to look at. The Kicker. I dont know about you, but my termination bandwidth varies below 1K depending on the phase/timing of the ambient arrival. Playing with the delay moves the bandwidth around. This makes some sense since the ambient arrivals happen very near the kicker timing. So interaction is occurring. Unfortunately, my miniDSP is already set to its maximum delay (7.5ms). To land 24ms after the direct, pure distance makes up the rest (about 17ms). And the ambient speaker locations already are as distant from the LP as I can make them. So essentially, I cant delay them further (although I like them arriving as the terminator "tail"). So perhaps I dont need to.
But it does mean that I still have other choices to make that will affect how its sounds.
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Very true...
One thing I noticed today. A long long time ago, when I didn't have any damping yet and my speakers weren't properly adjusted, the track: "He's a Pirate" from Hans Zimmer really knocked me off my feet.
Today it had a similar effect. But way better in tonality, the energy was back though. It has been a while since that track really had that same effect on me.
Can't be too sure, one of my ears is popping on and off due to a cold. But it was fun to re-live the experience from long ago.
Most of the time I'm in critical listening mode. Not everything is touching me emotionally, it's when you're taken by surprise that makes it fun. These experiments do have that effect. Sadly I can't turn off that "mode" at will. Stupid, I know... but I remember it being the same in my Car audio days. I could enjoy a table radio all day long but the minute I got into the car I was way too focused on what was wrong, instead of enjoying what was right.
It will be a while before I can get rid of that "learned behavior" again, but I know I'm getting closer. People are strange...
One thing I noticed today. A long long time ago, when I didn't have any damping yet and my speakers weren't properly adjusted, the track: "He's a Pirate" from Hans Zimmer really knocked me off my feet.
Today it had a similar effect. But way better in tonality, the energy was back though. It has been a while since that track really had that same effect on me.
Can't be too sure, one of my ears is popping on and off due to a cold. But it was fun to re-live the experience from long ago.
Most of the time I'm in critical listening mode. Not everything is touching me emotionally, it's when you're taken by surprise that makes it fun. These experiments do have that effect. Sadly I can't turn off that "mode" at will. Stupid, I know... but I remember it being the same in my Car audio days. I could enjoy a table radio all day long but the minute I got into the car I was way too focused on what was wrong, instead of enjoying what was right.
It will be a while before I can get rid of that "learned behavior" again, but I know I'm getting closer. People are strange...
Jim, I have a question for you. With all the efforts you put into your room, do you find yourself enjoying a wider range of music trough your speakers?
For me it does work that way. A more broad range of music sounds better to me. But each time I say something like that there's going to be a discussion. My view is the better the room + speakers perform, the more you can enjoy a wide variety of music.
The other side of that argument often talks about how this or that recording sounds great, but you hear the faults in everything. Now part of that may be true, I do hear differences in production and recording techniques, or even when it was made, as every decade did have some kind of sound of it's own.
I promised myself I wouldn't go to a point where you can only play a certain few audiophile tracks. I never needed to worry about it. The better the measurements, the more pleasing a wide variety of music sounds to me.
What is your experience?
(believe me I've come across some bad decisions in recorded music, at least I feel that way about them, but in general it really isn't that bad at all)
For me it does work that way. A more broad range of music sounds better to me. But each time I say something like that there's going to be a discussion. My view is the better the room + speakers perform, the more you can enjoy a wide variety of music.
The other side of that argument often talks about how this or that recording sounds great, but you hear the faults in everything. Now part of that may be true, I do hear differences in production and recording techniques, or even when it was made, as every decade did have some kind of sound of it's own.
I promised myself I wouldn't go to a point where you can only play a certain few audiophile tracks. I never needed to worry about it. The better the measurements, the more pleasing a wide variety of music sounds to me.
What is your experience?
(believe me I've come across some bad decisions in recorded music, at least I feel that way about them, but in general it really isn't that bad at all)
On to the regular scheduled program.
Day 2 after the little touch up in processing. No phantom center and a slightly shorter tail. The one that made "He's a Pirate" shine.
Part one of the test: get another subject in to listen. No volunteers, so I persuaded my kid to listen. He know's that song from my Car audio days, he used to love it so much, it was all that we played. (together with "The Race" from Yellow).
I put him into position and started the music. He was all smiles. During all of the song. It did sound louder to him. It really wasn't louder, but the envelopment makes the difference. In short: I'm not the only one liking this result. The absence of the phantom center in the ambient channel seems to be the right choice, I did not expect that. I had made the wrong conclusion before this test. Tried a few other songs, they just work. I never had this much space in the presentation without it starting to fall apart.
Things I have listened to today (for various reasons)
Steely Dan - Rikki Don't Lose That Number
Daft Punk - Lucky (remix version)
Sensation 2002 - Fairytale (intro for Sensation White edition)
Tiesto - Magic Journey (second song on Sensation 2002 CD)
Bo Saris - The Addict
Lana Del Ray - West Coast (Radio mix)
The Doors - Ghost Song (bonus track)
Infected Mushroom - Pink Froid love that atmosphere!
A Perfect Circle - Counting Bodies Like Sheep To The Rhythm Of The War Drums
Selena Gomez - Hands to Myself
All these tracks, and many more are in regular rotation as some kind of reference. These "references" (and many more like them) should all work first, for me to have faith in the settings I have chosen.
They are not all in "my preferred genre". But they do all have some qualities that make me keep them in rotation. And I actually like what they do, not all of it... but there is a reason for me to listen to them or they wouldn't be in that list. Quite a strange mix of songs, wouldn't you say? If anyone is interested I'll name a few more, just give me a shout.
Notice the absence of "Bird on a Wire", I just don't particularly like Jennifer Warnes. I do play it from time to time but it didn't make it to my regulars.
As long as I'm rambling, might as well explain for one of the songs why it's on there.
A Perfect Circle - Counting Bodies Like Sheep To The Rhythm Of The War Drums
This would most probably be a very good test to see if time alignment makes a difference in listening tests. It's one of the few test songs that still makes me turn my head in wonder thinking that someone is entering my home or something like that. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure. But if you can stand it, it's a great song to follow all the different (war) drums. The energy and immediacy of those drum strikes is worth it alone. You won't fall asleep during this song... Things I look for: do the drum hits convince me? The imaging and placement of the separate events is also on my mind while listening. As is the clarity between all the different stuff going on. But I also love to just listen and let the song take me by surprise. Its one of few songs that can still do that.
If you never jumped up or have your heart skip a beat during music playback, your system is too polite!
Day 2 after the little touch up in processing. No phantom center and a slightly shorter tail. The one that made "He's a Pirate" shine.
Part one of the test: get another subject in to listen. No volunteers, so I persuaded my kid to listen. He know's that song from my Car audio days, he used to love it so much, it was all that we played. (together with "The Race" from Yellow).
I put him into position and started the music. He was all smiles. During all of the song. It did sound louder to him. It really wasn't louder, but the envelopment makes the difference. In short: I'm not the only one liking this result. The absence of the phantom center in the ambient channel seems to be the right choice, I did not expect that. I had made the wrong conclusion before this test. Tried a few other songs, they just work. I never had this much space in the presentation without it starting to fall apart.
Things I have listened to today (for various reasons)
Steely Dan - Rikki Don't Lose That Number
Daft Punk - Lucky (remix version)
Sensation 2002 - Fairytale (intro for Sensation White edition)
Tiesto - Magic Journey (second song on Sensation 2002 CD)
Bo Saris - The Addict
Lana Del Ray - West Coast (Radio mix)
The Doors - Ghost Song (bonus track)
Infected Mushroom - Pink Froid love that atmosphere!
A Perfect Circle - Counting Bodies Like Sheep To The Rhythm Of The War Drums
Selena Gomez - Hands to Myself
All these tracks, and many more are in regular rotation as some kind of reference. These "references" (and many more like them) should all work first, for me to have faith in the settings I have chosen.
They are not all in "my preferred genre". But they do all have some qualities that make me keep them in rotation. And I actually like what they do, not all of it... but there is a reason for me to listen to them or they wouldn't be in that list. Quite a strange mix of songs, wouldn't you say? If anyone is interested I'll name a few more, just give me a shout.
Notice the absence of "Bird on a Wire", I just don't particularly like Jennifer Warnes. I do play it from time to time but it didn't make it to my regulars.
As long as I'm rambling, might as well explain for one of the songs why it's on there.
A Perfect Circle - Counting Bodies Like Sheep To The Rhythm Of The War Drums
This would most probably be a very good test to see if time alignment makes a difference in listening tests. It's one of the few test songs that still makes me turn my head in wonder thinking that someone is entering my home or something like that. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, I'm sure. But if you can stand it, it's a great song to follow all the different (war) drums. The energy and immediacy of those drum strikes is worth it alone. You won't fall asleep during this song... Things I look for: do the drum hits convince me? The imaging and placement of the separate events is also on my mind while listening. As is the clarity between all the different stuff going on. But I also love to just listen and let the song take me by surprise. Its one of few songs that can still do that.
If you never jumped up or have your heart skip a beat during music playback, your system is too polite!
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I guess the short answer would be yes, I listen to a wider variety of genres. But have a tendency to bypass poor recordings.
I will add that when I am making changes to my system, my music pallet shrinks to a few dozen songs. Test tracks.
I would like to hear what zero phantom sounds like also, but wont get there acoustically and haven't yet figured out a simple and cheap way to do it electronically.
GlassWolf's Pages
On the above page, iso-transformers are recommended to do the job. Not paying $200 for the Jensen models though.
Get the cheap ground isolators first. Some amps can do it with simple wiring tricks (the ones with a common ground) though aside from using my car radio like that (it worked) I never tried it on a regular amplifier.
Edit: I recognize that name from DIYMobileAudio.com... werewolf/lycan thought us well over there
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My list of test tracks is still growing. Like the Selena Gomez track. Even though it has nothing in DR values (6 dB) it is amazing how much space is embedded into that song. So it stayed as one of the representatives of the POP category.
werewolf/lycan thought us well over there
taught us well at DIYMA... sorry about that...