CarlP,
Well I have to say I am surprised these beat the BD pipes for clarity, speed, and high end, but you can't compare a 4.5 in driver against an 8 incher in a big TL for bass output. The foam core is lossy so you will not get the full efficiency predicted but mid 90's dB is still very good. I am glad it worked out - will you make it in wood or just stick with foam core?
Regards,
X
Well I have to say I am surprised these beat the BD pipes for clarity, speed, and high end, but you can't compare a 4.5 in driver against an 8 incher in a big TL for bass output. The foam core is lossy so you will not get the full efficiency predicted but mid 90's dB is still very good. I am glad it worked out - will you make it in wood or just stick with foam core?
Regards,
X
X, I too was a little surprised, but it's certainly possible I'm mistaking some of those qualities with the louder output. It's hard to hear the BD Pipes with both playing. And yes, these are quite efficient even if not high 90s.
As for making them from wood, good question. If I decide to go with the Karlson as keeper it'll be out of wood (partly for aesthetic reasons, partly for sonic benefits). Right now I'm playing with ideas to see what I might want to build next. I have tried a number of "full range" projects but I also want to explore multi-way, line array, waveguide, etc. Foam core will be my friend in at least some of those tests.
Cheers, and thanks for the technique!
As for making them from wood, good question. If I decide to go with the Karlson as keeper it'll be out of wood (partly for aesthetic reasons, partly for sonic benefits). Right now I'm playing with ideas to see what I might want to build next. I have tried a number of "full range" projects but I also want to explore multi-way, line array, waveguide, etc. Foam core will be my friend in at least some of those tests.
Cheers, and thanks for the technique!
Thank's X.
I have a 5w amp and I like mini Karlsonator but the FE126en isn't compatible with it. Can you recommend me a driver?
Regards,
Nelson.
mini Karlsonator 0.6X with dual FR10's
Nelson,
The Visaton FR10 can work reasonably well and is priced just right at $10 ea. Use two of them in a 0.6X scale Karlsonator. I am very happy with dual Vifa TC9FD's - you can certainly go that route.
Here are the sims (the 300 Hz dip depends on positioning from wall).
Good luck!
Nelson,
The Visaton FR10 can work reasonably well and is priced just right at $10 ea. Use two of them in a 0.6X scale Karlsonator. I am very happy with dual Vifa TC9FD's - you can certainly go that route.
Here are the sims (the 300 Hz dip depends on positioning from wall).
Good luck!
Attachments
Nelson,
I forgot to mention that the above sim for the FR10 is actually an additional 0.7X scale by width (the aspect ratio will be taller - the width is really 0.6x0.7 or 0.42X overall while the height is 0.6X overall compared to original), and 0.7X additional scale for top channel vent (final scale is 0.42X on the vent from original). Sorry to be so confusing but it was easier to implement the scaling in the model this way.
X
I forgot to mention that the above sim for the FR10 is actually an additional 0.7X scale by width (the aspect ratio will be taller - the width is really 0.6x0.7 or 0.42X overall while the height is 0.6X overall compared to original), and 0.7X additional scale for top channel vent (final scale is 0.42X on the vent from original). Sorry to be so confusing but it was easier to implement the scaling in the model this way.
X
Last edited:
semi-related, Carl make's his small (8" and probably 10" ) driver K's as the hak8 below with curved reflector and vent above the reflector. The front chamber shape is something like a bass clef symbol and assume has an adjustable lowpass choke rear shelf. A good 10K would be fun for me.
http://imageshack.us/a/img844/6743/hak8.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img844/6743/hak8.jpg
Dual NS525 (budget) mini-Karlsonator
The Aurasound budget NS525 driver available from Madisound for $3 ea seems to be an interesting candidate for a budget Karlsonator that has pretty good efficiency (~95 dB)and reaches down to about 50 Hz with a pretty flat response in the bass region. The Karlsonator plan was scaled 0.8x in length and 0.47x in width and depth, with a scaling of 2.5x applied to the vent gap after the other scalings are applied. The performance/price ratio of this speaker is pretty good.
Plots are for speaker placed 18 in from back wall with 2.83v input at 1m.
- Freq response
- Impedance
- Cone excursion
- Impulse function
The Aurasound budget NS525 driver available from Madisound for $3 ea seems to be an interesting candidate for a budget Karlsonator that has pretty good efficiency (~95 dB)and reaches down to about 50 Hz with a pretty flat response in the bass region. The Karlsonator plan was scaled 0.8x in length and 0.47x in width and depth, with a scaling of 2.5x applied to the vent gap after the other scalings are applied. The performance/price ratio of this speaker is pretty good.
Plots are for speaker placed 18 in from back wall with 2.83v input at 1m.
- Freq response
- Impedance
- Cone excursion
- Impulse function
Attachments
Another sound clip on the Mini's
I just had a chance to listen to the Dave Brubeck Quartet's famous "Take Five" recording from 1959 on YouTube on the TC9FD mini Karlsonators and it really sounds good. Here is a link to the YouTube video and an mp3 recording of the same video played over YouTube (on an Android tablet) connected my home-built TPA3116D2 amp and mini Karlsonator speakers. I recorded with a Zoom H4 at 9 ft away from speakers spaced 8 ft apart.
Listen to the mp3 clip with headphones and see the sound I am talking about - there is definitely no issue with the high frequencies not getting through.
YouTube vide here: Take Five - The Dave Brubeck Quartet (1959) - YouTube
My mp3 clip is at about the 4:20 mark.
I just had a chance to listen to the Dave Brubeck Quartet's famous "Take Five" recording from 1959 on YouTube on the TC9FD mini Karlsonators and it really sounds good. Here is a link to the YouTube video and an mp3 recording of the same video played over YouTube (on an Android tablet) connected my home-built TPA3116D2 amp and mini Karlsonator speakers. I recorded with a Zoom H4 at 9 ft away from speakers spaced 8 ft apart.
Listen to the mp3 clip with headphones and see the sound I am talking about - there is definitely no issue with the high frequencies not getting through.
YouTube vide here: Take Five - The Dave Brubeck Quartet (1959) - YouTube
My mp3 clip is at about the 4:20 mark.
You can't really take sims like this at face value. Sims have gotten pretty good, but they are not reality. They mostly give an indication of bass to midrange performance.
0.4x Scale Karlsonator with single Vifa driver
In case anyone is interested in making a cute 0.4x scale Karlsonator with a single driver - it looks like it can work. It is a 12 in tall x 6 in wide box that may fit on a desk or bookshelf easily. More details here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/246473-how-do-i-read-ff225-driver-2.html#post3716409
The Faital Pro 4FE32 or 3FE22's can also be used here.
In case anyone is interested in making a cute 0.4x scale Karlsonator with a single driver - it looks like it can work. It is a 12 in tall x 6 in wide box that may fit on a desk or bookshelf easily. More details here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/246473-how-do-i-read-ff225-driver-2.html#post3716409
The Faital Pro 4FE32 or 3FE22's can also be used here.
Just a random thought: Has anyone considered putting something absorbent of HF on the inside of the wings and the whole space inside them, instead of having the cavity resonance with hard panels?
You'd have to turn up the treble to compensate for the absorbed sound (but that is causing more harm than good anyway).
It would make the wings work more as a lens at higher frequencies than a loading device (it isn't suited for that at those frequencies anyway).
You'd have to turn up the treble to compensate for the absorbed sound (but that is causing more harm than good anyway).
It would make the wings work more as a lens at higher frequencies than a loading device (it isn't suited for that at those frequencies anyway).
Freddi would know the answer to that but that is something I can try very easily and report back. I know that putting stuffing there would slow down the air velocity coming out of the port. You can really feel the jet of air pumping through the narrow part of the Karlson aperture on the bass notes. It may damp the bass actually - that is my guess.
No no, not the narrow part that works as a bass lens. That has already been filtered by the bandpass stuff at the back. Only the cavity in front of the driver.
And I'm not talking stuffing all of the chamber, that would just absorb all of the HF. Only the back of the wings and perhaps the sides, still leaving a clear view of the driver, sonically and optically.
The slot already works as a wideband lens, but the higher frequencies "bounce around" in there. If you could limit the HF sound to only what hits the lens slit immediately, that would be much better I think.
And I'm not talking stuffing all of the chamber, that would just absorb all of the HF. Only the back of the wings and perhaps the sides, still leaving a clear view of the driver, sonically and optically.
The slot already works as a wideband lens, but the higher frequencies "bounce around" in there. If you could limit the HF sound to only what hits the lens slit immediately, that would be much better I think.
its something to try - - I wonder if contouring the sidewall to baffle junctions with Bondo/etc. to direct (if possible) some energy to the aperture is useful? posterboard pieces taped against the baffle and sidewall might give something.
regular K's have damping adjustments available through: rear lowpass choke gap, de-Q-ing vent holes or slits, aperture gap width and initial aperture flare. The first few inches of the main aperture also can affect HF "air" besides damping. . I think the top reflector can affect several subjective areas including image height and breadth. A bit of polyfil put in the first couple of inches of slot of a K8 can have effects.
The 42” tall coupler below has a narrow slit for the first 5 or 6 inches of travel - if that is blocked then apparent "speed" is "slower". It was pretty good and with 1966 style K-tube and several mundane 18" woofers sounded better than most of my FR in direct radiator mode, It was quite good on opera with the clunky Eminence 18s(!)
due to vent position, there was high velocity wind felt 8 feet away from the upper aperture - the internal vent was adequate and it had pretty good hit with 250 watt peaks on drums
regular K's have damping adjustments available through: rear lowpass choke gap, de-Q-ing vent holes or slits, aperture gap width and initial aperture flare. The first few inches of the main aperture also can affect HF "air" besides damping. . I think the top reflector can affect several subjective areas including image height and breadth. A bit of polyfil put in the first couple of inches of slot of a K8 can have effects.
The 42” tall coupler below has a narrow slit for the first 5 or 6 inches of travel - if that is blocked then apparent "speed" is "slower". It was pretty good and with 1966 style K-tube and several mundane 18" woofers sounded better than most of my FR in direct radiator mode, It was quite good on opera with the clunky Eminence 18s(!)
due to vent position, there was high velocity wind felt 8 feet away from the upper aperture - the internal vent was adequate and it had pretty good hit with 250 watt peaks on drums
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I tried putting poly fill around behind the wings in the lower 2/3rds of the front chamber of the dual driver Vifa Karlsonator. I am still listening to it with some test tracks. Have not had a chance to go back to without yet but my initial impression is that the high frequencies are still there - not attenuated, the bass is still there and quite good. Subjectively I have to say it sounds smoother for lack of a better word but I believe the stereo phantom image has improved tremendously. I think that the reduction in stray HF reflections inside the wings may be cleaning up the spatial cues. That is purely subjective though and I have to do a quick A/B test to confirm.
I did some more listening tests and like the sound with a smaller amount of stuffing behind the lower 1/2 of the wing. I reduced the density to half of what I used before which caused a reduction the highs (snare drums etc). I like the smoother sound overall and the enhanced image presentation. Squeak has a great suggestion and idea here - thanks!
I just order 2 TC9FD to build the .4 Karlsonator for my computer desk. I have a friend who is a master woodworker that will help me build the cabs and do a professional job veneering them....if they warrent it.
I am a woodworker but all my stuff is round, his is all square. I am looking forward to this little project, my only concern is my tube amp is only 5wpc, but it should work with close up listening.
I am a woodworker but all my stuff is round, his is all square. I am looking forward to this little project, my only concern is my tube amp is only 5wpc, but it should work with close up listening.