This is what I have archived. Not sure where I found it. The website is not all that informative.
Edit: This is where I found it: www.pispeakers.com/Measurements
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I'm sorry, Skylar, but for bass response, you will have to look somewhere else. Looking at that graph, f3 is 55Hz, which I'm sure your dual driver mini-ks can do easily as well.
The 2Pi uses a 10" cone, so, it will move more air, but not that much.
If you want more bass, consider adding a TL sub to your mini-ks
The 2Pi uses a 10" cone, so, it will move more air, but not that much.
If you want more bass, consider adding a TL sub to your mini-ks
Thanks for your comments, Perceval, Freddi and X.
You're quite correct, the dual 3FE25 mini-K's can do 55Hz, but it doesn't do it well.
It's not my intention to rattle the cups in my neighbors kitchen. I just want better bass than the mini-K's give me right now.
Ever since X told me "there is no replacement for displacement", it became my goal for my next speaker project.
You're quite correct, the dual 3FE25 mini-K's can do 55Hz, but it doesn't do it well.
I beg to differ. It will move much more air. If you calculate the area of one 10" driver and compare it to the area of two 3.5" drivers, you'll see it's 3.3 times larger. Also, the speaker I'm talking about is the 3 Pi Tower, which uses the same drivers as the 2 Pi, but is a much taller tower bass reflex design. That should count for something and I see it as the reason why someone commented that you don't need a sub with it.
It's not my intention to rattle the cups in my neighbors kitchen. I just want better bass than the mini-K's give me right now.
Ever since X told me "there is no replacement for displacement", it became my goal for my next speaker project.
I have tried it with a 5" HT sub and I don't like the effect.
5" is not much displacement either!
I know what you mean... I've got a big 15" per side here and they can't do anything under 40Hz, even with EQ boost... bare in mind it's on OB.
Up from that and it's golden...
My TABAQs (a MLTL design) could fill that 55Hz no problem, even in a big room. I'm surprised your dual mini-k's can't do it with some authority. I only have the single TC9 mini-k's here, and they are decent... without reaching 55Hz with authority... I was hoping the dual would.
But if you do like the sound coming from your pair, I'd follow X's advice and get a sub, placed in between the mini-k's, to fill anything from 80Hz and below.
You'd get the nice dispersion of the K aperture, and the reach down low from the sub.
Easy to do.
Unless you are itching to start another build... that I understand as well... it's not easy to stop once you started down that path!
...Unless you are itching to start another build... that I understand as well... it's not easy to stop once you started down that path!
It's not that I'm itching to build speakers. I do want bigger speakers as I explained, but I'm not going to build something for the sake of building. That's why I'm hoping to glean more insight from people with experience of different speaker designs. It's a big investment for me and I can't afford to make a mistake.
I already know that I want bigger speakers. But I presume we are all in the same boat when it comes to selecting a new speaker design. Those fortunate enough to be able to listen to different types of speakers have it easy. I'm not that lucky.
Well,
what I can say is that a horn sound is very different from a K aperture sound.
The K's try to disperse the sound widely. The horns try to direct it.
So, you would be looking at a very different beast.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. Your ears would be the judge of that.
If you can find a friend locally or a shop that has a pair of Klipsch, you'd get an idea of the horn sound.
It's not for everyone... I know it's not for me. I prefer open sound from OB than a horn.
But that's me. I can't speak for anyone else.
Most of my speakers can do meaningful bass... the ones that don't have help from a sub or two.
All of them have their own signature and I do enjoy them for what they are.
what I can say is that a horn sound is very different from a K aperture sound.
The K's try to disperse the sound widely. The horns try to direct it.
So, you would be looking at a very different beast.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. Your ears would be the judge of that.
If you can find a friend locally or a shop that has a pair of Klipsch, you'd get an idea of the horn sound.
It's not for everyone... I know it's not for me. I prefer open sound from OB than a horn.
But that's me. I can't speak for anyone else.
Most of my speakers can do meaningful bass... the ones that don't have help from a sub or two.
All of them have their own signature and I do enjoy them for what they are.
Now, that is good information and something that I have not realized or read anywhere else on diyAudio. So, thank you for that!
X did allude to it when he said a few posts back: "There’s some Karlson acoustic lens aperture magic there that an open face conventional speaker just doesn’t have." I got used to that Karlson magic and I don't want to lose it! What is the biggest and baddest Karlson that one can build? Hopefully with decent bass.
Also good advice. The problem with shops is that they don't have ACA quality amps and AKSA Lender quality preamps, lol. I went to a shop to listen to Klipsch speakers a few months ago and was very disappointed. Not only could I not hear ANY soundstage, the salesman also didn't know what I was talking about when I asked about the lack of soundstage. Go figure.
I think my next task is to find someone close-by with horns, etc.
The 12in Karlsonator. The original by GregB fitted with pro audio 12in coaxial can go to 40Hz with authority and have highs via compression driver. Or you could make K tube tweeter to have same dispersion profile as K aperture.
I have similar story about visiting audio shops. I went to a high end one and they had a big Mac amp with blue glowing VU meters on the floor and a pair of B&W 802D. I came away very unimpressed. It can play loud with relatively low distortion. But just wasn’t special sounding. Not engaging. Lacked accurate transient attack. Just know that a diy Karlsonator and ACA with Aksa Lender are going to be very tough to beat. If you add a sub woofer to round it out at the bottom, you will have quite the system. Maybe upgrade to an Alpha 20 amp for better dynamics with more headroom. Or even an Alpha BB.
I have similar story about visiting audio shops. I went to a high end one and they had a big Mac amp with blue glowing VU meters on the floor and a pair of B&W 802D. I came away very unimpressed. It can play loud with relatively low distortion. But just wasn’t special sounding. Not engaging. Lacked accurate transient attack. Just know that a diy Karlsonator and ACA with Aksa Lender are going to be very tough to beat. If you add a sub woofer to round it out at the bottom, you will have quite the system. Maybe upgrade to an Alpha 20 amp for better dynamics with more headroom. Or even an Alpha BB.
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I hear you, X. It may be so, but I have come to the conclusion that the mini-K's don't have enough displacement. What are the options to go bigger and still retain the Karlson magic? There must be quite a range of Karlson derivatives by now. I love my 0.53's and they will be used somewhere in the house, but for my main system I'm looking for bigger speakers. I'm not ruling out adding subs (plural) at all.
To drive the bigger speakers, I've already started building an M2. Maybe I'll build an Alpha later too, who knows?
I'm really interested in a karlsonator with a ~12" class driver (or a parallel pair of smaller drivers) that wouldn't break the bank. I love my .53x scale K's, but want bigger
If there's something in the full range 10"~12" cone, $60~ or so per driver price range that can work well I would love to build a set. I would love to reach straight down to 40hz with a karlsonator without having to go broke on pricy drivers. I wouldn't mind augmenting the top end with a k-tube if the tweeters are affordable too
If there's something in the full range 10"~12" cone, $60~ or so per driver price range that can work well I would love to build a set. I would love to reach straight down to 40hz with a karlsonator without having to go broke on pricy drivers. I wouldn't mind augmenting the top end with a k-tube if the tweeters are affordable too
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I think if you augment the bottom with a sub, you will find the dual 3FE25-16’s able to give a very solid performance for higher SPL. They are pro audio drivers and rated 40w each so 80w total. If you high pass them at 100Hz to reduce cone movement and distortion and use sub below that you will find you have about 24dB of headroom (93dB + 24dB) is 117dB max (thermally limited). I would have to run a sim to see what cone excursion is with a 100dB -18dB/oct high pass filter. Sub would have to be able to get up to mod 110 dB. But it would sound very loud indeed.
Sounds good.
I was just getting ready to start buying components for a 2-way 24db/octave LR based on the Project 09 from Elliot Sound Products(again) so that sounds pretty good. I need an active crossover for several projects and 100hz is a pretty versatile crossover point. Unfortunately, the only caps I've got on hand will work for a ~280hz crossover point, which won't work unless I order a sack of different value resistors that wouldn't be ideal with the circuit chosen.
I still want some big ones, not for any real reason other than I want them, I suppose))
The big 12" Aucharm drivers are going to be in huge cabinets as it is, so I don't really need big K's, nor would I know where to put them!
Now we just need some sort cheap subs that can cover 20-100hz with some authority
I was just getting ready to start buying components for a 2-way 24db/octave LR based on the Project 09 from Elliot Sound Products(again) so that sounds pretty good. I need an active crossover for several projects and 100hz is a pretty versatile crossover point. Unfortunately, the only caps I've got on hand will work for a ~280hz crossover point, which won't work unless I order a sack of different value resistors that wouldn't be ideal with the circuit chosen.
I still want some big ones, not for any real reason other than I want them, I suppose
))The big 12" Aucharm drivers are going to be in huge cabinets as it is, so I don't really need big K's, nor would I know where to put them!
Now we just need some sort cheap subs that can cover 20-100hz with some authority
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a year or two ago, Loudspeakersplus had the P-Audio 15CXA with 100oz magnet and cast frame for $99.95 including their BMD440 compression driver - that would have been a traditional Karlson K15 coax. I mentioned it several times on this forum and they finally sold out.
I can't currently find any really good deals on coaxial -
there are these two - so so
$159 - oddball P-audio 29 lb 15CX with 3.5" voice coil woofer and 3" voice coil compression driver - small magnet on woofer (83 ounces) qts .49 (might make a Karlsonator?)
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/v/vspfiles/templates/driven/pdfs/SN15-600CXF.pdf
$70 shipped TSG Eminence 10cx with (unnamed) compression driver mounted - it looks to be Eminence's Beta10cx which could be mega lackluster in mids (my impression with Eminence's suggested crossover when mounted in a "K10" sized box) but I think Mike Chua got it to work and open up with his "Osprey" crossover.
TSG C1065- 34 COAX Woofer/Driver FREE SHIPPING! DEALER COST!!! GREAT DEAL!!! | eBay
a good alternative is to go with appropriate woofer, compression driver and K-tube either on top or mounted in the front chamber. There's some influence of course from that mounting but still sounds very "fast". Karlson's "X15" system introduced the idea in 1965 and the early X15 had a wood clam-"klam" tweeter driven by a 3" cone speaker. That moved on to a metal tube with parabolic slot driven by a compression driver.
a rising on axis response can be helpful for the woofer as the woofer is tilted back as reasonably low moving mass.
I still think 12LTA could stand another 16 ounces of magnet slug - its like the old CTS 12" whizzer cone speaker that was slapped in toy PA speakers and IIRC has a physical voice coil overhang of ~0.08". It doesn't outright distort but lacks the "kick" or "grab" found with Eminence's 12CX and Kappa12a which use 80oz of magnet. I prefer the sound of a K12 with Kappa12a to my well made but crappy sounding Peavey FH1 (like a klipsch "Belle" but 6 inches deeper cabinet"
Eminence has made 12CX with 54oz/80oz and 109oz magnets.
CX need good crossover or will not sound fully coherent.
I can't currently find any really good deals on coaxial -
there are these two - so so
$159 - oddball P-audio 29 lb 15CX with 3.5" voice coil woofer and 3" voice coil compression driver - small magnet on woofer (83 ounces) qts .49 (might make a Karlsonator?)
http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/v/vspfiles/templates/driven/pdfs/SN15-600CXF.pdf
$70 shipped TSG Eminence 10cx with (unnamed) compression driver mounted - it looks to be Eminence's Beta10cx which could be mega lackluster in mids (my impression with Eminence's suggested crossover when mounted in a "K10" sized box) but I think Mike Chua got it to work and open up with his "Osprey" crossover.
TSG C1065- 34 COAX Woofer/Driver FREE SHIPPING! DEALER COST!!! GREAT DEAL!!! | eBay
a good alternative is to go with appropriate woofer, compression driver and K-tube either on top or mounted in the front chamber. There's some influence of course from that mounting but still sounds very "fast". Karlson's "X15" system introduced the idea in 1965 and the early X15 had a wood clam-"klam" tweeter driven by a 3" cone speaker. That moved on to a metal tube with parabolic slot driven by a compression driver.
a rising on axis response can be helpful for the woofer as the woofer is tilted back as reasonably low moving mass.
I still think 12LTA could stand another 16 ounces of magnet slug - its like the old CTS 12" whizzer cone speaker that was slapped in toy PA speakers and IIRC has a physical voice coil overhang of ~0.08". It doesn't outright distort but lacks the "kick" or "grab" found with Eminence's 12CX and Kappa12a which use 80oz of magnet. I prefer the sound of a K12 with Kappa12a to my well made but crappy sounding Peavey FH1 (like a klipsch "Belle" but 6 inches deeper cabinet"
Eminence has made 12CX with 54oz/80oz and 109oz magnets.
CX need good crossover or will not sound fully coherent.
Try these subs - they have a combo of tapped horn and Karlson.
New sub design? Constricted Transflex, simple build (series tuned 6th order)
If you need big caps for sub crossovers use back-to-back big electrolytics (connect either +ve to +ve or vice versa). Bypass with a 10uF film cap. The total value is half the single cap value. So a pair of 22,000uF gives 11,000uF. That will let you get anlow high pass filter.
New sub design? Constricted Transflex, simple build (series tuned 6th order)
If you need big caps for sub crossovers use back-to-back big electrolytics (connect either +ve to +ve or vice versa). Bypass with a 10uF film cap. The total value is half the single cap value. So a pair of 22,000uF gives 11,000uF. That will let you get anlow high pass filter.
I looked at these two - seem really rather good for the price, but I am looking for something with better soundstage and tonality.
That's what I was thinking too. But how do we know the quality of the "soundstage and tonality" before hearing it? It's really risky to go by other people's opinions in this game. What sounds good to one person, doesn't necessarily sound good to another.
I listened to XL Frugal Horns (Alpair 10.3) recently. It did not have the magic that I've become used to with my mini-K's. It sounded very relaxed and non-fatiguing, though. Something I could listen to all day, but almost no soundstage. Would a K-aperture on the XLFH's bring out the magic?