Hi-Fi Full Range speakers playing complex music

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Perhaps your 50Hz from an 4 inch speaker is all in your mind? ;)
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This could also explain why I get headaches listening to small speakers, my little old brain gets overloaded?

I am aware of psychoacoustics that fools the brain to thinking that the bass is lower than it is - which is why what I am claiming is based on measurements.

Not sure why you continue to discount the possibility of a 4 in driver actually making 50 Hz. I have measurements using Holmimpulse and a Panasonic WM61A mic on several of my desgns (a BLH and a MLTL) and others have also measured down to 50 Hz using my design. These are actually 3.5 inch drivers and the bass is certainly not in the same league as a real woofer but can definitely be heard and is plenty loud for the type of music and listening environment that I have.

See example of measurement by Jim Shearer on one of my designs here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/227460-fh3-inspired-foam-core-mini-build-6.html#post3413898

Here is the output from the bass port of a 30 in long folded MLTL with a 3.5 in driver. It's all about the enclosure as there is no way you can get this otherwise.
325365d1358742242-foam-core-board-speaker-enclosures-bass-port.png


Here is the output from the bass port of a 40 in long MLTL with a 3.5 in driver.
334671d1362710759-foam-core-board-speaker-enclosures-flat-mltl-freq-resp.png
 
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60 responses and this thread is that same as all threads like this:

Some people telling other people that they (the other people) can't possibly like their speakers.

No different than different musical styles, tubes, sold state, vinyl beer, wine, cars, etc.

I always marvel at the tired old debate. Particularly since each side is determined to defend their perspective when it really shouldn't matter.

Each person likes what they like for their own reasons. Who cares what some stranger thinks about your system in your room?

Children on the playground.
 
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ts all really weird for me to talk about square wave being better rendred on a fullrange and that is the proof the a fullrange is more musical whatever ********.
Its also weird that musicality is directly related to a wave form. A good speaker, multi way of fullrange is suppose to play what you put in it. Musicality comes from the source no? a good speaker should be transparent.

My only message is try for yourself. Anyone who think is satisfied with their Full range, but have never heard a multiway, build both, then you can decide for yourself.
 
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Founder of XSA-Labs
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Maybe that's why we have separate forums for full range and multi-way speakers? They are both good at what they are designed for. I agree that one side trying to convince the other is pointless. But discussing, debating, and arguing can sometimes lead to new ideas... If people like to debate that is their choice and that is what an open forum is meant for. If one doesn't like to hear children on a playground arguing, don't go onto the playground.
 
murphythecat,

You just don't get it , do you? Not everyone is looking for what you value.

OK, use your car example. Compare my wife's RAV-4 Toyota to a Ferrari.

So I go down to Curtis Lumber in preparation for a speaker build. Decide to take the Ferrari. What a piece of crap! No way to get those sheets of plywood home!

Later, I go down to the track. Decide to take the RAV-4. What a piece of crap! Handling is just pitiful, and it can't even make 150 mph!

Can you see what's going on here?

Some people are very good at spending other people's money...

Cheers, Jim
 
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ts all really weird for me to talk about square wave being better rendred on a fullrange and that is the proof the a fullrange is more musical whatever ********.
Its also weird that musicality is directly related to a wave form. A good speaker, multi way of fullrange is suppose to play what you put in it. Musicality comes from the source no? a good speaker should be transparent.

My only message is try for yourself. Anyone who think is satisfied with their Full range, but have never heard a multiway, build both, then you can decide for yourself.

XRK posts frequency response graphs and you somehow interpret them as waveforms? What are they putting in the water in Quebec?
 
in the upper box you see on my avatar.


small enough photo to not be able to detect actual size of the enclosure you're running the 12s in - have you described / posted larger photos elsewhere?

since I've heard the A12P in 2 quite different enclosures ( MarKen and SuperPensil) I can attest that it's a driver that delivers more than adequate bass for me (& Jeff too, I think) in a larger enclosure - but as Jim alludes, you may be looking for something other - perhaps ineffable?
 
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small enough photo to not be able to detect actual size of the enclosure you're running the 12s in - have you described / posted larger photos elsewhere?

since I've heard the A12P in 2 quite different enclosures ( MarKen and SuperPensil) I can attest that it's a driver that delivers more than adequate bass for me (& Jeff too, I think) in a larger enclosure - but as Jim alludes, you may be looking for something other - perhaps ineffable?
Yes, maybe my box is not the optimal perfect box ever for the 12p, still, no comparison compared to a true woofer. the box is around 30L. but I dont care really and I am sorry to have offended people. if you think you have enough bass, great really. I am not saying your wrong. simply that I was not satisfied. end of stroy. I'll move on.
My only message to anyone is build both, a multi and a fullrange, and then decide for your self. thats it.
 
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since I've heard the A12P in 2 quite different enclosures ( MarKen and SuperPensil) I can attest that it's a driver that delivers more than adequate bass for me (& Jeff too, I think) in a larger enclosure

Yes. I no longer require rock concert (The Who) levels, but do enjoy room filling bass without reaching said levels. Something many of the smaller drivers struggle to do without being pushed. Maybe it's an age thing.;)

jeff
 
Yes, maybe my box is not the optimal perfect box ever for the 12p, still, no comparison compared to a true woofer.
it was never intended to be a "true woofer" whatever TF that is - all of us have heard unmusical examples of the latter, without perhaps parsing exactly what it was about the total system performance that we didn't care for

the box is around 30L. but I dont care really and I am sorry to have offended people. if you think you have enough bass, great really.
you'd not be the first individual to complain about performance of "wide-band" drivers when used in inappropriately designed enclosures, and/or with disregard - willful or otherwise- for their limitations

I am not saying your wrong. simply that I was not satisfied. end of stroy. I'll move on.
My only message to anyone is build both, a multi and a fullrange, and then decide for your self. thats it.
well, the debate could rage on for pages as to what constitutes a "true multi-way", but many of us have owned/built both, and can still find value in fullrange systems


and this question of "complex" music - what exactly constitute the metrics / thresholds for that? - genre, number of instrumental /human voices, time signatures, volume levels?

some of us might prefer what would be defined as "simpler" music for lots of reasons other than just the ability of our low powered / FR systems to not fall apart at our preferred listening levels

Jeff - maybe it is an age thing - I'm fine with that
 
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Curiously I once tried my fave 'speaker test' on a pair of MAs I own.
Listen to a PJ Harvey CD On Competent speakers she has a surprisingly lovely/good voice. On Crappy ones she screeches like a Cat whose tail has been stepped on.
My MA's were definitely Cat like. Polly Jean was unlistenable.. period.
Disapointing certainly, but given their price point and featuring Plastic Frames fer Gawd's sake.. Not surprising either.
Buy Cheap.. buy twice kids.
 
Yes. I no longer require rock concert (The Who) levels, but do enjoy room filling bass without reaching said levels. Something many of the smaller drivers struggle to do without being pushed. Maybe it's an age thing.;)

jeff
Ok, I have to ask: What is 'room filling'?
I hear it over and over again on english speaking forums. It's almost seems like a technical term. :)
I mean a small radio can be "room filling", if turned up loud enough, only not with a lot of bass of general SQ.
If you have to sit with your head in a vice because the sweetspot is pinpoint sized, roomfilling wouldn't seem fitting either. Even then it is used when talking about very large FR drivers.
 
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Curiously I once tried my fave 'speaker test' on a pair of MAs I own.
Listen to a PJ Harvey CD On Competent speakers she has a surprisingly lovely/good voice. On Crappy ones she screeches like a Cat whose tail has been stepped on.
My MA's were definitely Cat like. Polly Jean was unlistenable.. period.
Disapointing certainly, but given their price point and featuring Plastic Frames fer Gawd's sake.. Not surprising either.
Buy Cheap.. buy twice kids.
I doubt you are talking about the paper alpair 12. maybe the metal cones, but the paper version is smooth with no harshness in voices, quite contrary. What was the version of the MA?

Chris, I love the alpair 12p and will use it eventually for a secondary system. The bass is okay for low level listening. I'll probably build them into desktop speakers. anyways
Now, off to Coltrane- Naima alt version 1.
 
Insecure of the size of their....Drivers!

Hi Murphythecat8,

Sorry about the delay in replying to you, I have been in therapy after all the bad things those rude men said, sadly It looks like they won’t let me join their
" If yours is bigger than mine you're a Troll" club!! :D

Anyway for your eyes only...Here is a wee bit of my Full Range Driver history.

It all started one sunny day in May 2002 in the Kempinski Hotel, Munich before The High End Show moved to the new venue.
I saw, heard and fell in love with the Manger Driver, a stunning piece of mathematical design, cutting edge materials science and German engineering.
Compared to the usual suspects I had listened to i.e. £5K to £25K worth of cones, domes, ribbons, wheeezers and horns it was a revelation, it simply "Did no wrong".
I had only heard a few Fostex and Lowther full rangers back then but even so the Manger was so clearly operating in a world far removed from the evils of wobbly " mass on a spring " drivers that I was hooked...
11 years later its still my personal reference and 1st choice for a single driver low to medium SPL speaker system.

After spending 5 years R&D (and a lot of money!) I ended up with this :
6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System

The sad truth is that at £1,500 a pair that is just the tip of the iceberg...The Manger driver only reveals it true abilities when it is supported by a lot of ultra-expensive infrastructure...You can’t just stick it in an MDF box with a passive crossover and expect the earth to move. 99% of all those who have heard the Manger driver have never actually heard the Manger driver...I know Daniela Manger well and I was privileged to spend a day at her Father’s home as well, Joseph Manger is a genius and a lovely man.

But they run a commercial business and are limited by market forces and prices….I was not limited, well actually I was just a music lover with another income so whether or not Overkill Audio made much money was not an issue, Petra and I had a blast for 5 years and we sold 26 systems by the end of 2008, then the market crash…Time to call it a day!
Anyway I better stop now or “the bad men” will trace my internet connection… You know they are all secret agents and their real names are Jason Bourne…!

Have fun mate and just ignore the "flat earth chaps"....They will all eventually fall of the edge!!;)
Cheers
Derek.
 
My MA's were definitely Cat like. Polly Jean was unlistenable.. period.
Disapointing certainly, but given their price point and featuring Plastic Frames fer Gawd's sake.. Not surprising either.
Buy Cheap.. buy twice kids.

Don't know why you keep beating this drum? You put your drivers in tiny little OEM boxes that were designed for a completely different driver, and yet you still complain about them, and on multiple forums to boot.:confused:

I hear it over and over again on english speaking forums. It's almost seems like a technical term. :)

It's not.

I mean a small radio can be "room filling", if turned up loud enough, only not with a lot of bass of general SQ.

Well that would be a good example of a speaker that "doesn't" have "room filling" bass then wouldn't it?

If you have to sit with your head in a vice because the sweetspot is pinpoint sized, room filling wouldn't seem fitting either. Even then it is used when talking about very large FR drivers.

I don't think most of us are interested in a pinpoint sized "sweet spot", whether we're talking about a single driver or multi driver speaker system. Given the choice between a single driver that has a good (but narrow) sweet spot, or a multi way speaker with a poor soundstage, I'll take the former. And trust me, I've heard lots of multi-way speakers with a poor (or nonexistent) soundstage.

jeff
 
So either the OP pulled a troll'n'dash or he got sickened by the overall negative attitude the thread quickly took.

No need to crap fullrange (or any) threads if you don't like it personally. You won't "save anyone any money".

I'm off to go crap a few threads over in Car Audio. I mean, how bad does that stuff sound, right? Gotta teach'em!

IG
 
So either the OP pulled a troll'n'dash or he got sickened by the overall negative attitude the thread quickly took.

I vote troll'n'dash.;)

I'm off to go crap a few threads over in Car Audio. I mean, how bad does that stuff sound, right? Gotta teach'em!

When you can hear a car coming from 4 blocks away, it's got to be pretty bad.

jeff
 
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