my 70hz was just to give a idea. yes my fonkens was going down to 50hz not 30 hz. are you kidding me. you have good outputs at 30hz with a fullrange?
its the quality of the midbass that really is a bit lacking on a fullrange, but that might just be my limited experience, but I have heard two supposedly great fullrange, and they both had that default.
so, you think that the bass is GREAT with a fullrange, more power to you, I dont care.
sorry for being a troll.
oh yeah, bob marley is not rock, I think its called reggae? im so unneducateds in music. sorry
My only ponint was to say that the bass presence on a fullrange is not really realistic. The bass has no impact or no real presence. its clearly not a realistic bass experience. I hear the bass just fine, but I dont feel it.
so you feel the power of the bass at 95db with a 8 inch fullrange just like a multiway can?
well okay then, not my experience.
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There are different kinds of bass.
Have you been in the room with a band with standup acoustic bass and felt the bass pounding your chest? I didn't think so. That has never happened to me either, so I do not expect my speakers to render standup bass that way.
On the other hand, electric bass is (by default) amplified when played live, typically by bass amps that are far more powerful than the average home systems (whether multi-way or not). This makes any home system a "compromise" when compared to a live electric bass. The same goes for a kick drum. All speakers compromise different aspects of the original, to one degree or another.
It is true that if considerably high SPL is required at the lowest octave, then subwoofer support ("FAST") is certainly the best way to go. However, for many types of music, this simply isn't the case. It seems, however, that many of the anti-fullrange crowd are those who define "music" as a typical 4-piece rock n' roll band. In this case, I would agree that full range speakers are not the best choice for "rocking out" at high SPL. Nevertheless, I continue to enjoy all kinds of rock on my system - just not at ear-bleeding SPL.
Regarding roll-off; I have heard many 2-way loudspeakers which roll off well before the last octave is complete, and many 3-way systems that do render all the octaves, but in a way that I simply cannot enjoy. Truly spectacular multi-ways are far more expensive and complicated to build, and even then some of the magic may still be missing.
In the end it is all personal preference; types of music, required SPL, hearing abilities, etc.
What I can say, without reservation, is that my current (single full range driver) pair of speakers covers the musical spectrum end-to-end. The only time I need extra bass support, oddly enough, is at lower SPLs - I use my sub as a "loudness" button. Once I push some power through them, nothing is missing. I listen to a wide range of musical genres, but I will admit that orchestral symphonies are not included it that.
Perhaps you are not a troll after all. I do encourage you to sample more full range speakers if you have the chance. You might be surprised.
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Just to clarify my points on SPL; the single full range loudspeakers that I currently enjoy are quite capable of rendering Led Zeppelin or Rage Against the Machine at SPL levels that cause my wife to complain and my neighbours to comment about, all the while sounding very smooth and balanced. I do not do this often (I love my wife and like my neighbours) but I just wanted to be clear that by "SPL compromise" I do not mean "easy listening".
I generally listen at around 80-84dB (peaks), as I know that much beyond that is not healthy (I listen for hours a day) and I want to enjoy music for the rest of my life.
People who expect to listen consistently at 95dB.... well, I really don't know what to say to them. I am not quite sure they will hear me anyway.
I generally listen at around 80-84dB (peaks), as I know that much beyond that is not healthy (I listen for hours a day) and I want to enjoy music for the rest of my life.
People who expect to listen consistently at 95dB.... well, I really don't know what to say to them. I am not quite sure they will hear me anyway.
Full-range Drivers
I have a long history of using Lowther drivers so I will share my experiences.
I originally purchased a pair of Hedlund Horns that came with Lowther DX2 drivers. I then traded-in the DX2 drivers to obtain DX4 drivers. The upgrade to the DX4s proved that stronger magnets improved both the ability of the Hedlund horns to play more complex music, improved the quality of high frequencies and extended the high end frequency response and improved the quality of bass.
So one comment I have is that stronger the driver motor, the better the speaker.
I read that the doppler distortion caused when the driver cone is moving too much causes congestion in the midrange. I high-passed the Lowthers at about 80 hz and the midrange was a lot less congested - this really worked.
Another issue with light coned drivers like Lowthers is that they allow sound to easily pass thorugh them. With backhorns, the backwave can reflect back through the driver muddying the sound. When I put felt in the compression chamber of the Hedlund Horns, it reduced this effect and lowered the congestion of the driver. I suspect that other backhorns with folded horn passages (the Hedlund Horns have a long sweeping pathway) that there is a likelyhood of increased reflections back through the cone from the backwave.
However, the best way to avoid the congestion caused by the backwave is to mount the wide range drivers on open baffles. I built a set of Dick Olsher's Basszilla speakers which uses the Lowther DX4 on open baffle. This further reduced congestion in the midrange and resulted in much clearer sound. I suspect that, in addition to the reflected backwave, that the compression chamber of the Hedlund backhorn was causing the very light cone of the DX4 to deflect and causing distortion. When there is no backpressure with open baffle speakers, I think that this helps to avoid the driver sounding congested.
As a result of these changes, the Lowther driver came a long way towards better sound. However, I came across one more improvement which allowed the Lowther drivers to "get the rest of the way there." I read about the enABLe treatment for speaker drivers developed by Bud Purvine. As it turns out, someone locally happened to have a set of Lowther DX4 drivers treated with enABLe, and I was able to borrow them to hear how they sounded. The treated drivers sounded more coherent (less likely to sound congested), midbass was better (more explosive) the tone was better (the untreated drivers sounded a little wooley in comparison), and higher frequencies were also noticibly better. The improvements were impressive.
Well, here are my experiences. I think that there is a lot one can do to improve the sound quality of wide range drivers, by implementing some or all of these things which I discovered works for these types of drivers. In the end, the congestion associated with wide range drivers is essentially gone, and you still have the immediacy and delicacy which most people would say these types of drivers excel at - the compromises begin to disappear. I won't say that these drivers operated this way are perfect, but they are a lot closer.
I have a long history of using Lowther drivers so I will share my experiences.
I originally purchased a pair of Hedlund Horns that came with Lowther DX2 drivers. I then traded-in the DX2 drivers to obtain DX4 drivers. The upgrade to the DX4s proved that stronger magnets improved both the ability of the Hedlund horns to play more complex music, improved the quality of high frequencies and extended the high end frequency response and improved the quality of bass.
So one comment I have is that stronger the driver motor, the better the speaker.
I read that the doppler distortion caused when the driver cone is moving too much causes congestion in the midrange. I high-passed the Lowthers at about 80 hz and the midrange was a lot less congested - this really worked.
Another issue with light coned drivers like Lowthers is that they allow sound to easily pass thorugh them. With backhorns, the backwave can reflect back through the driver muddying the sound. When I put felt in the compression chamber of the Hedlund Horns, it reduced this effect and lowered the congestion of the driver. I suspect that other backhorns with folded horn passages (the Hedlund Horns have a long sweeping pathway) that there is a likelyhood of increased reflections back through the cone from the backwave.
However, the best way to avoid the congestion caused by the backwave is to mount the wide range drivers on open baffles. I built a set of Dick Olsher's Basszilla speakers which uses the Lowther DX4 on open baffle. This further reduced congestion in the midrange and resulted in much clearer sound. I suspect that, in addition to the reflected backwave, that the compression chamber of the Hedlund backhorn was causing the very light cone of the DX4 to deflect and causing distortion. When there is no backpressure with open baffle speakers, I think that this helps to avoid the driver sounding congested.
As a result of these changes, the Lowther driver came a long way towards better sound. However, I came across one more improvement which allowed the Lowther drivers to "get the rest of the way there." I read about the enABLe treatment for speaker drivers developed by Bud Purvine. As it turns out, someone locally happened to have a set of Lowther DX4 drivers treated with enABLe, and I was able to borrow them to hear how they sounded. The treated drivers sounded more coherent (less likely to sound congested), midbass was better (more explosive) the tone was better (the untreated drivers sounded a little wooley in comparison), and higher frequencies were also noticibly better. The improvements were impressive.
Well, here are my experiences. I think that there is a lot one can do to improve the sound quality of wide range drivers, by implementing some or all of these things which I discovered works for these types of drivers. In the end, the congestion associated with wide range drivers is essentially gone, and you still have the immediacy and delicacy which most people would say these types of drivers excel at - the compromises begin to disappear. I won't say that these drivers operated this way are perfect, but they are a lot closer.
50Hz with a 4 incher, is that real bass or the cone just flapping around producing a din?
I can remember a saying, "you cannot get a quart out of a pint pot", and this certainly goes for speakers.
Today I listened to Grofe's Grand canyon suite: Cloudburst, through my big old 15 inch monkey coffins and then through a pair of Radioshack Minimus 7's and the difference is night and day.
Small drivers make a bassy noise but it is not music. I can listen to UB40 all day on my large speakers without getting a headache, not so with the various smaller speakers I have.
If you have never listened to good large speakers then don't, your wife will thank you for it.
Of course 50 Hz on a 4 in driver is only possible with help from a good enclosure (either BLH or MLTL) and it won't be the same as a 12 in woofer. I won't argue that. But for a lot of the music I like, it is fine and you are right. When I employ a sub or helper woofer my wife complains that there is too much bass and to turn it down. But 50 Hz is certainly not beyond the reach of a good 4 in full range with well designed cabinet. Some may poo poo it and say there is distortion or time delay etc. I get a smile when I can hear a double bass in a jazz band come through clearly on a small driver with no help from a sub.
Just a note about this whole "doppler" effect argument against full rangers. I've seen it so many times now and I find it incredible that nobody seems to relaize that the exact same principle applies to every 2-way loudspeaker out there. The "midbass" has to handle all the bass and mirange, therefore this supposed "muddy" midrange is as much of a problem for those systems as they are for fullrangers. The addition of a tweeter is no panacea for this issue. Yet, the majority of the time anyone discusses this effect as a "major issue" is when they are attempting to convince fullrange listeners that their speakers must sound like crap.
It is truly absurd, and quite amusing.
I am currently listening to Bob Marley - Legend (thanks to Murphy) at 80-87dB peaks with my 5.25" fullrangers (sub turned off) and nothing is missing. On the lowest bass notes, the crystal in the kitchen cabinet rattles a bit and I can feel the bass in the floor with my feet.
Anyone still in doubt about fullrangers is intentionally deceiving themselves. Why? I do not know.
It is truly absurd, and quite amusing.
I am currently listening to Bob Marley - Legend (thanks to Murphy) at 80-87dB peaks with my 5.25" fullrangers (sub turned off) and nothing is missing. On the lowest bass notes, the crystal in the kitchen cabinet rattles a bit and I can feel the bass in the floor with my feet.
Anyone still in doubt about fullrangers is intentionally deceiving themselves. Why? I do not know.
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cogitech, where is the cogitum and where is the tech ?
You seem to be defending something noone tried to attach-
As as I see that you lack the basic knowldege of what a FAST thingy is:
it's not a subwoofer with a fullrange - well, it could be : given a 100 W figure, and a 20-30 cm FR, powered sub...- but it's much easier done with a woofer
and a little FR, gentle slope 6 dB PLEASE Tryyyyyy
You seem to be defending something noone tried to attach-
As as I see that you lack the basic knowldege of what a FAST thingy is:
it's not a subwoofer with a fullrange - well, it could be : given a 100 W figure, and a 20-30 cm FR, powered sub...- but it's much easier done with a woofer
and a little FR, gentle slope 6 dB PLEASE Tryyyyyy
Hey, yes I do hear the bass with my fonkens, no problem. its the quality of the sound that is definitely less define then what I use now. Less define is a funny way to put it. the difference is not even funny.
This is quite a fact that is hard to argue. While I could hear all the bass, with a fullrange, the feeling wasnt there, the sound, yes, but the feel. the strung, the impact, the dynamic of the bass, let me laugh. no way. not even close.
A 2-way is still a major compromise for any designer to make it really sing, and a 3-way is also a compromise. Its only when you go with a 4-way that you can be really sure that all the drivers are playing at their best performance. So, how in the hell could a fullrange do it all. A good 4 way will use a sub from 25-80hz, then cross to a midbass 15 or 12 inch from 80 to 300hz, then the midrange driver, then the tweeter.
You say that the 3-way you heard sounded bad, well there you go. go listen to a good 3-way. I simply cannot imagine anyone be satified with there 5inch driver anymore. At least, I wasnt. I really wanted to like fullrange because of the simplicity, but faced to face with a 15 inch, I knew this is what I always wanted from my system.
HOWEVER, I am mainly only refering to bass here. I loved the alpair 12p for the mid and highs, it was definitely a hifi sound, smooth, detailed, clear. but not for the bass.
Talking about boxes, they introduce complexion to the thing
Just by adding a baffle, you change driver behavior -just by putting on a flat surface, then there are the other panels- Bevels? Round edges ?
Then is the backwave absorbed somehow
NaaH ! too much complexion!
Perhaps your 50Hz from an 4 inch speaker is all in your mind?
Missing fundamental - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This could also explain why I get headaches listening to small speakers, my little old brain gets overloaded?
Perhaps your 50Hz from an 4 inch speaker is all in your mind?
Missing fundamental - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This could also explain why I get headaches listening to small speakers, my little old brain gets overloaded?
Great article. I been preaching this for years. Small speakers do not have bass. They have implied bass. But then....
You do not need a big speaker to produce satisfying bass in many instances. The bottom note on a standard piano is A=28Hz. But, if you look at a spectrum analysis of that note, there is virtually NO fundamental. It's all overtones. Hence, one need only to have a speaker that goes to 46Hz to (reasonably) accurately produce piano. Likewise, the bottom note of the plucked double bass and bass guitar is E=42Hz. But again, there is virtually no fundamental. So, you get a (reasonably) accurate reproduction with a speaker that only goes to 84Hz. This is why 4" speakers are reported as having "good" bass.
This does not work for every instrument. Bowed double bass has lots of fundamental. Properly reproduced, you FEEL notes played on the E string. Organ reed stops have little fundamental. But the diapason stop is almost a pure sine wave.
Final answer: It depends.
Bob
This is a common belief. Depends on your criteria for 'true high fidelity'. Hi-Fi to me is so much more than just producingthe bass drum and cymbals accurately. It's about musicality. Actually a multi-way can't even produce the bass drum accurately as in trying to produce the step response required to produce an accurate bass waveform the treble portion of the step is truncated and sent to the tweeter, which relays it to the listener in a non-coherent fashion. If you have anything other than a sinewave then the multi-way by definition won't produce the waveform as well as the best full-range as the component sinewaves that make up any complex waveform are reconstructed in a less than perfect manner, giving a totally different waveform shape. The frequency content is all there (on paper) but the realism has been lost. Ask yourself which has the capability for producing the most accurate square wave a coherent full-ranger or 2 or more dedicated drivers? If you say the latter then you need to read up a bit more on step-response.
What a dedicated bass driver does well is volume envelope (impulse response) for the lowest frequencies, without straining the amp too much. The best full-ranger will need some sort of cabinet loading which reduces this impulse response a bit. To say you lose Hi-Fi is not true at all, however as impulse response can be alot better throught the rest of the spectrum as well as aformentioned waveform coherence (step-response). The best full rangers actually do the latter so well that in my book they surpass the best multi-ways.
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