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Hi-Fi Full Range speakers playing complex music
Hi-Fi Full Range speakers playing complex music
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Old 24th April 2013, 08:58 PM   #41
murphythecat8 is offline murphythecat8  Canada
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Originally Posted by cogitech View Post
None of the full range speakers I have built roll off at 70Hz. Anyone who thinks that is what to expect from full range has limited experience with full rangers.

And now I am guilty of feeding multiple trolls. I apologize.

Note: Bob Marley is not "rock".
my 70hz was just to give a idea. yes my fonkens was going down to 50hz not 30 hz. are you kidding me. you have good outputs at 30hz with a fullrange?
its the quality of the midbass that really is a bit lacking on a fullrange, but that might just be my limited experience, but I have heard two supposedly great fullrange, and they both had that default.
so, you think that the bass is GREAT with a fullrange, more power to you, I dont care.
sorry for being a troll.
oh yeah, bob marley is not rock, I think its called reggae? im so unneducateds in music. sorry

My only ponint was to say that the bass presence on a fullrange is not really realistic. The bass has no impact or no real presence. its clearly not a realistic bass experience. I hear the bass just fine, but I dont feel it.
so you feel the power of the bass at 95db with a 8 inch fullrange just like a multiway can?
well okay then, not my experience.

Last edited by murphythecat8; 24th April 2013 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 24th April 2013, 09:32 PM   #42
cogitech is offline cogitech  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
my 70hz was just to give a idea. yes my fonkens was going down to 50hz not 30 hz. are you kidding me. you have good outputs at 30hz with a fullrange?
its the quality of the midbass that really is a bit lacking on a fullrange, but that might just be my limited experience, but I have heard two supposedly great fullrange, and they both had that default.
so, you think that the bass is GREAT with a fullrange, more power to you, I dont care.
sorry for being a troll.
oh yeah, bob marley is not rock, I think its called reggae? im so unneducateds in music. sorry

My only ponint was to say that the bass presence on a fullrange is not really realistic. The bass has no impact or no real presence. its clearly not a realistic bass experience. I hear the bass just fine, but I dont feel it.
so you feel the power of the bass at 95db with a 8 inch fullrange just like a multiway can?
well okay then, not my experience.
There are different kinds of bass.

Have you been in the room with a band with standup acoustic bass and felt the bass pounding your chest? I didn't think so. That has never happened to me either, so I do not expect my speakers to render standup bass that way.

On the other hand, electric bass is (by default) amplified when played live, typically by bass amps that are far more powerful than the average home systems (whether multi-way or not). This makes any home system a "compromise" when compared to a live electric bass. The same goes for a kick drum. All speakers compromise different aspects of the original, to one degree or another.

It is true that if considerably high SPL is required at the lowest octave, then subwoofer support ("FAST") is certainly the best way to go. However, for many types of music, this simply isn't the case. It seems, however, that many of the anti-fullrange crowd are those who define "music" as a typical 4-piece rock n' roll band. In this case, I would agree that full range speakers are not the best choice for "rocking out" at high SPL. Nevertheless, I continue to enjoy all kinds of rock on my system - just not at ear-bleeding SPL.

Regarding roll-off; I have heard many 2-way loudspeakers which roll off well before the last octave is complete, and many 3-way systems that do render all the octaves, but in a way that I simply cannot enjoy. Truly spectacular multi-ways are far more expensive and complicated to build, and even then some of the magic may still be missing.

In the end it is all personal preference; types of music, required SPL, hearing abilities, etc.

What I can say, without reservation, is that my current (single full range driver) pair of speakers covers the musical spectrum end-to-end. The only time I need extra bass support, oddly enough, is at lower SPLs - I use my sub as a "loudness" button. Once I push some power through them, nothing is missing. I listen to a wide range of musical genres, but I will admit that orchestral symphonies are not included it that.

Perhaps you are not a troll after all. I do encourage you to sample more full range speakers if you have the chance. You might be surprised.

Last edited by cogitech; 24th April 2013 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 24th April 2013, 09:53 PM   #43
cogitech is offline cogitech  Canada
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Just to clarify my points on SPL; the single full range loudspeakers that I currently enjoy are quite capable of rendering Led Zeppelin or Rage Against the Machine at SPL levels that cause my wife to complain and my neighbours to comment about, all the while sounding very smooth and balanced. I do not do this often (I love my wife and like my neighbours) but I just wanted to be clear that by "SPL compromise" I do not mean "easy listening".

I generally listen at around 80-84dB (peaks), as I know that much beyond that is not healthy (I listen for hours a day) and I want to enjoy music for the rest of my life.

People who expect to listen consistently at 95dB.... well, I really don't know what to say to them. I am not quite sure they will hear me anyway.
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Old 24th April 2013, 10:13 PM   #44
Retsel is offline Retsel  United States
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Default Full-range Drivers

I have a long history of using Lowther drivers so I will share my experiences.

I originally purchased a pair of Hedlund Horns that came with Lowther DX2 drivers. I then traded-in the DX2 drivers to obtain DX4 drivers. The upgrade to the DX4s proved that stronger magnets improved both the ability of the Hedlund horns to play more complex music, improved the quality of high frequencies and extended the high end frequency response and improved the quality of bass.

So one comment I have is that stronger the driver motor, the better the speaker.

I read that the doppler distortion caused when the driver cone is moving too much causes congestion in the midrange. I high-passed the Lowthers at about 80 hz and the midrange was a lot less congested - this really worked.

Another issue with light coned drivers like Lowthers is that they allow sound to easily pass thorugh them. With backhorns, the backwave can reflect back through the driver muddying the sound. When I put felt in the compression chamber of the Hedlund Horns, it reduced this effect and lowered the congestion of the driver. I suspect that other backhorns with folded horn passages (the Hedlund Horns have a long sweeping pathway) that there is a likelyhood of increased reflections back through the cone from the backwave.

However, the best way to avoid the congestion caused by the backwave is to mount the wide range drivers on open baffles. I built a set of Dick Olsher's Basszilla speakers which uses the Lowther DX4 on open baffle. This further reduced congestion in the midrange and resulted in much clearer sound. I suspect that, in addition to the reflected backwave, that the compression chamber of the Hedlund backhorn was causing the very light cone of the DX4 to deflect and causing distortion. When there is no backpressure with open baffle speakers, I think that this helps to avoid the driver sounding congested.

As a result of these changes, the Lowther driver came a long way towards better sound. However, I came across one more improvement which allowed the Lowther drivers to "get the rest of the way there." I read about the enABLe treatment for speaker drivers developed by Bud Purvine. As it turns out, someone locally happened to have a set of Lowther DX4 drivers treated with enABLe, and I was able to borrow them to hear how they sounded. The treated drivers sounded more coherent (less likely to sound congested), midbass was better (more explosive) the tone was better (the untreated drivers sounded a little wooley in comparison), and higher frequencies were also noticibly better. The improvements were impressive.

Well, here are my experiences. I think that there is a lot one can do to improve the sound quality of wide range drivers, by implementing some or all of these things which I discovered works for these types of drivers. In the end, the congestion associated with wide range drivers is essentially gone, and you still have the immediacy and delicacy which most people would say these types of drivers excel at - the compromises begin to disappear. I won't say that these drivers operated this way are perfect, but they are a lot closer.
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Old 25th April 2013, 12:02 AM   #45
radiosmuck is offline radiosmuck  Canada
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
+1. 70 Hz is for girlie-man full range speakers. More like 50 Hz with a 4 in and 30 Hz with an 8 inch FR. Lowest note on double bass or electric bass is 41 Hz. Below that is HT stuff.
50Hz with a 4 incher, is that real bass or the cone just flapping around producing a din?
I can remember a saying, "you cannot get a quart out of a pint pot", and this certainly goes for speakers.
Today I listened to Grofe's Grand canyon suite: Cloudburst, through my big old 15 inch monkey coffins and then through a pair of Radioshack Minimus 7's and the difference is night and day.
Small drivers make a bassy noise but it is not music. I can listen to UB40 all day on my large speakers without getting a headache, not so with the various smaller speakers I have.
If you have never listened to good large speakers then don't, your wife will thank you for it.
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Old 25th April 2013, 12:22 AM   #46
cogitech is offline cogitech  Canada
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You're basing your opinion of current state-of-the-art full range drivers on your experience of Minimus 7s? Are you developmentally challenged? Serious question.
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Old 25th April 2013, 01:18 AM   #47
radiosmuck is offline radiosmuck  Canada
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Originally Posted by cogitech View Post
You're basing your opinion of current state-of-the-art full range drivers on your experience of Minimus 7s? Are you developmentally challenged? Serious question.
Frame, cone, coil and magnet in a box, unless you know different?
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Old 25th April 2013, 01:25 AM   #48
Bob Brines is offline Bob Brines  United States
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Bingo!

Bob
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Old 25th April 2013, 01:39 AM   #49
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Hi-Fi Full Range speakers playing complex music
Of course 50 Hz on a 4 in driver is only possible with help from a good enclosure (either BLH or MLTL) and it won't be the same as a 12 in woofer. I won't argue that. But for a lot of the music I like, it is fine and you are right. When I employ a sub or helper woofer my wife complains that there is too much bass and to turn it down. But 50 Hz is certainly not beyond the reach of a good 4 in full range with well designed cabinet. Some may poo poo it and say there is distortion or time delay etc. I get a smile when I can hear a double bass in a jazz band come through clearly on a small driver with no help from a sub.
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Old 25th April 2013, 01:54 AM   #50
cogitech is offline cogitech  Canada
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Just a note about this whole "doppler" effect argument against full rangers. I've seen it so many times now and I find it incredible that nobody seems to relaize that the exact same principle applies to every 2-way loudspeaker out there. The "midbass" has to handle all the bass and mirange, therefore this supposed "muddy" midrange is as much of a problem for those systems as they are for fullrangers. The addition of a tweeter is no panacea for this issue. Yet, the majority of the time anyone discusses this effect as a "major issue" is when they are attempting to convince fullrange listeners that their speakers must sound like crap.

It is truly absurd, and quite amusing.

I am currently listening to Bob Marley - Legend (thanks to Murphy) at 80-87dB peaks with my 5.25" fullrangers (sub turned off) and nothing is missing. On the lowest bass notes, the crystal in the kitchen cabinet rattles a bit and I can feel the bass in the floor with my feet.

Anyone still in doubt about fullrangers is intentionally deceiving themselves. Why? I do not know.

Last edited by cogitech; 25th April 2013 at 02:00 AM.
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