Ladies & Gentlemen - The Emken

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Too heavy... hence a practical revision to 15mm ply

I'm 'for' 18mm, decent 15mm is a special order, as boat builders round here have gone to 12mm over 15mm. For 5 or 6 sheets the ordering and shipping cost from out of county is too rich for me.
Having helped a friends band and out-door eventers shift their kit, weight seems to matter not, wheels are a good idea imho for 'pro' usage.
Of course, these things are up to the designer.
 
Some further observations after humping these up the stairs and into salon Dlugos yesterday evening and a short listening session:

- no question about the 12TA's effortless dynamics and room filling capacity that have been mentioned before, but even with the 98cent tweak ( cotton batten in this case), phase plugs and the quickie connection of small horn tweeters ( FT17H?) - there are still issues with the tonality of these guys that certainly seem to correspond to the 6dB trough in FR centered around 4kHz, and then the steep drop above 6k.

- viscerality abounds with these - subtlety / finesse - not so much

think Cummins diesel Ram 3500 crew cab / Lotus Eterne

Thanks for you thoughts Chris. I like the Cummins/Lotus analogy. I guess towing a trailer, stump pulling and work duties are not everyones ideal 'vehicle' to musical nirvana. Then again I can't comfortably fit into my friends Lotus Exige :Ouch:

I find the power, even at low levels I guess from the high efficiency substitutes for finesse but I have nothing to compare them to. There may be some FF85wKen's in my future - will they do the Lotus position?

I EQ'd in a bump at 4k using iTunes built in EQ (YES I KNOW :crazy:) and there was definitely a levelling out even with that blunt tool. Wish I had the 2-buck measuring system. I'd have found out this months ago........
 
There's probably more I'm missing.

The XO's impact on off axis polar response, especially WRT driver placement, which can be massive with baffle mounted mids-up horn/woofer designs. All things considered then, firing a super-tweeter at the ceiling and/or to the rear, while technically a no-no is probably the best compromise and much easier to dial in since the XO will typically be 1st order in the 20-30 kHz range.

GM
 
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That was a quick move! Can I ask what your preferred amp would be?

Of the amps i have handy, the RH84 monoblok variants. A good solid 4W/channel.

At sometime Bernie will likely bring his Abraxas 2A3, and Chris has a couple SE amps too. We'll have to drag the El Cheapo variant up as well -- still amoungst the very best amps i've heard fro bass within its power limitations (3,2W).

dave
 
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my interpretation of pluff was some cotton wool encircling the interface between the whizzer cone and the main cone, from my reading it is to help eradicate any distortion or resonance occurring between the 2 surfaces.

There are a number of ways of approaching this, search for 98 cent whizzer trick. I used pluff because there was some within easy reach (the dog loves relieving pillows and quilts of their pluff. It was not done with any precision just quick & nasty,

2 things are accomplished, the air space between the whizzer and the main cone is damped and the whizzer is braced against the main cone with a lossy damping mechanism.

Another thing that i will try is the felt spots on the back of the whizzer (ref Goodmans Axiom and Sansui F10)

dave
 
I had some no doubt idiotic idea of switching between the Emken in FR mode and a simple filter to make them the bass dept for the FF85wKen's. Might work?

well, since Dave has both and lots of amps on hand .......


would make for a interesting pairing for sure

images



BTW Holy poop on stick Batman the little 4k bump I gave the Emken was like an enema on a constipated elephant!!! Its ALL coming out now :gasp: :crazy: :eek: :yikes:

TMI - and what were you doing with an elephant sized enema kit anyway?



for workout of scale, articulation and inner detail try on for size:

Patricia Barber - "Constantinople", "Post Modern Blues" ( Modern Cool)
Loreena McKennitt - "Huron Beltane Fire Dance" (Nights at Alhambra)
Bela Fleck "Flight of Cosmic Hippo" (shorter reprise -album of same name)
 
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- sure am glad we switched over to BB ply years ago - in MDF these would be a real pig to move

Over on Audio Circle there is an ongoing thread on the broadly similar Tanken (for TB W8-1808), i commented that MDF was not suitable which elicited this narative as to why:

MDF is suitable!

Q: What properties does MDF exhibit?

A: MDF has many qualities that make it an ideal replacement for plywood or particle board. It is dense, flat, stiff, has no knots and is easily machined. Its fine particles provide dimensional stability without a predominant "grain" (as is the case with lumber). Unlike most plywoods, MDF contains no voids, and will deliver sharp edges with no tearout. MDF is very well damped acoustically thus making it an ideal material for speaker enclosures.

This cabinet is designed using the same push the box resonances out of band so that they are never excited methodology.

Material siffness and resonate qualities are paramount. To get as stiff as 18mm BB you'd need 1 1/4" MDF. But that is a lot heavier so to counter the mass lowering resonance you'd have to use even thicker material, say 1 1/2". Now you have even more issues with energy storage, and, due to it's homogenous nature, low Q resonances, which is counter to the need to keep potential resonances of high Q. So you need to add more braces to push resonances and Q higher.

It is easy to see that all the details will need changing. And even in 18mm ply these boxes will not be light (big strong guy, but more practically 2). To get anything even similar in MDF it would weigh on the order of 3x as much. And it still wouldn't have the finesse or sonics. And likely cost more. Especially if you factor in the health care if the extra weight causes a back injury or lands on your toe.

MDF is not suitable.

dave

quickie connection of small horn tweeters ( FT17H?)

The Foster horn out of the Radio Shack pod (the plastic, not aluminum bodied ones). I like it a bit better than the FT17.

there are still issues with the tonality of these guys that certainly seem to correspond to the 6dB trough in FR centered around 4kHz, and then the steep drop above 6k.

Last night watching the idiot box there were some places where a hollow colouration was added, as if the actors were recording in an echo booth.

for serious music listening, I'd probably want to properly XO them (circa 3500-4k?)

We'll see where, but i concur.... The tweeters i am using are probably limited to 4-5k (3rd order), if it could be mated with a 1st order electrical, 2nd order acoustic on the 12LTA we'd be away to the races. Sensitivity is already broadly the same (using a 2uF cap ATM)

and of course let Dave go nutso with the polka dots and modge-podge

Got to give them a good pounding 1st, and drivers this large are a pain to do. They will likely get the puzzlecoat pretreat in situ.

the whizzer is larger than the emitting surface of several of our favorite FRangers ( EL70/ Alpair7 - FF125WK)

A bit larger than the cone on the Alpair12 (~13 cm)

dave
 
All tubes. The F1/F2/F3 are likely all good (F2J might be a real sweety). Nelson's new SIT based amps could be scarily like a triode amp without most of the downsides.

dave

no maintenance costs, just the initial entry $10,000 /pr - with his required front end investment, I doubt DIYers will soon see these particular output devices available for home builds


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I drove an MX5 (miata) before I filled out/matured etc etc Only with the roof down thou :D

Listened to a couple of the tracks Chris mentioned. Would like to concentrate on 1 thou so how about Constantinople? Here are my listening notes

"Finger strike is fleshy rather than struck with implement on the tabla(?) At the beginning I can hear the extra breath used in the initial exhalation in the vocals. String bass being bowed (no idea of the actual instrument cello or double bass?) is phenomenal with the friction of bow and string almost palpable. The dynamics between slight hollow striking of the tabla and the long draw of the bow contrasts nicely with the string instrument (guitar/sitar) and vocal tones and the track finishes as a nice 'round' reducing to the opening tabla strikes again"

BTW do the smaller FR boxes do any of the bass on that track?
 
Instanly brings a picture of my brother sitting in my (long gone) Europa. His forhead sticking out of the sunroof.

dave



try three on board - my now wife perched on my lap in a mid 70's length evening party dress - believe it or not that extra 110lbs threw off the cornering characteristics and made for a bumpy ride

"Dear Penthouse: I never really believed these letters were true, then this happened ......"

40yrs on, I'm entitled to remember it anyway I like
 
modding the Fane

I drove an MX5 (miata) before I filled out/matured etc etc Only with the roof down thou :D

Listened to a couple of the tracks Chris mentioned. Would like to concentrate on 1 thou so how about Constantinople? Here are my listening notes

"Finger strike is fleshy rather than struck with implement on the tabla(?) At the beginning I can hear the extra breath used in the initial exhalation in the vocals. String bass being bowed (no idea of the actual instrument cello or double bass?) is phenomenal with the friction of bow and string almost palpable. The dynamics between slight hollow striking of the tabla and the long draw of the bow contrasts nicely with the string instrument (guitar/sitar) and vocal tones and the track finishes as a nice 'round' reducing to the opening tabla strikes again"

BTW do the smaller FR boxes do any of the bass on that track?


nice notes - for me this track is exactly all about the array of textures you describe,
flesh on drumskins, and the tension of horsehair bow on double bass (Michael Arnopol ) , and that might actually be an udu drum

on the Post Modern Blues listen for his fingerprints being worn away on Michael's fretting and slap work

and let's not overlook Dave Douglas' trumpet work throughout the entire album - for me one of the stellar greats of the past 20yrs

saw close to this same troupe live about 10yrs ago - freakin awesome


I guess "if this isn't jazz, I'll have to wait 'til the real thing comes along" (Companion - Live at the Green Mill)


for company
in the 21st century
i go to the club, talk through the show,
i'm so hip there's nothing about jazz
that I don't know
i read the critics evaluation
short enough to mirror the copy of
expensive public relations
i like a loud and noisy tune
if that's what everyone else thinks is cool
for company
 
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I really enjoy Ahmad Jamal, both Nat & Cannonball Adderley for lighter listening/chilling out. I'm collecting Montreux Jazz Festival on vinyl and have the complete '75 and '77 sets now featuring all the biggies from the era.

I saw Melody Gardot and Jamie Cullum, amongst others, at the Ghent Jazz festival. I took this picture Jazz@Night on the final evening (after a great meal and on the way to a private jam session in the vaulted stone basement of the hotel we were staying at - 4am finish). They have a stage on one side of the canal/river with some audience and the rest are on the other side!! Very colourful, very cool

Melody Gardot has a new album out soon :D
 
There are a number of ways of approaching this, search for 98 cent whizzer trick. I used pluff because there was some within easy reach (the dog loves relieving pillows and quilts of their pluff. It was not done with any precision just quick & nasty,

2 things are accomplished, the air space between the whizzer and the main cone is damped and the whizzer is braced against the main cone with a lossy damping mechanism.

Another thing that i will try is the felt spots on the back of the whizzer (ref Goodmans Axiom and Sansui F10)

dave


those little loop bits? by any chance could you provide some picture based examples of what you've done to the driver so i can mirror them on my own attempt please?

on a side note, my father seemingly had some of axioms in a big square brown box thing and i gave them to a charity shop as i said i didn't want his old crap *manly tears*

john2015.jpg
 
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