FH3 vs Pensil
The time has finally come, the wife has decided the down pipes I'm using as a MLTL for my CHR-70's are just too ugly. I tend to agree unfortunately so its time for them to go.
After plenty of reading I am still undecided between the FH3 vs Pensil.
The Pensil MLTL is easy to build and can work in a variety of situations but is kinda ugly when compared to the FH3, so aesthetically its the FH3 for sure...BUT.
Will the FH3 work without corner loading (not an option in this house). Will 'close' to the back wall be enough to boost the bottom end as intended or is it corner or nothing with these little puppies?
Cheers
Dean
The time has finally come, the wife has decided the down pipes I'm using as a MLTL for my CHR-70's are just too ugly. I tend to agree unfortunately so its time for them to go.
After plenty of reading I am still undecided between the FH3 vs Pensil.
The Pensil MLTL is easy to build and can work in a variety of situations but is kinda ugly when compared to the FH3, so aesthetically its the FH3 for sure...BUT.
Will the FH3 work without corner loading (not an option in this house). Will 'close' to the back wall be enough to boost the bottom end as intended or is it corner or nothing with these little puppies?
Cheers
Dean
I wouldn't call the pensils (no one seems to spell this correctly!) ugly, look at the pics that Chris has posted of his home setup, they are beautifully veneered and fit the room wonderfully. I made a pair for the A7's (g2) and really like them. However, my wife considered them boring and actually asked me to put the big set of open baffles back into the living room! So the pensils are now in my office where their unobtrusiveness is a plus. I have a pair of chr70's and two a7's in various enclosures and if I was going to do the work of building the fh3's I'd probably consider selling the speakers you have now to someone (why let the work go to waste) and getting a pair of a7's for the new build. I'd look for the g3's, I seem to remember the guy in UK doing flatpacks recently writing they were a real improvement over the g2's in the FH, so I'd guess the same probably applies in the pensil, though I haven't yet seen drawings for them.
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Lets Talk About Comparing The Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 Driver in Either Cabinet. With Respect to Cost, Performance & Application.
The Pencils Or the Frugel Horn MK3.
A Cost of a Pencil Build Using a Quality Ply I would Speculate to be around $200-$250 Finished.
A Frugel Horn MK3. "Pack" Or Self Cut & Build, Coming to a Figure Slightly Above The Pencils Around $250-$350 Finished.
The Prices for Either would be subject to cost alteration when we also factor in DIY Ability, Tools on Hand & Sourcing Wood Ect.. A Well Seasoned DIYer Knows most Projects turn out to usually cost more than Initially Planned.
So, to Compare Performance of the Driver in either Cabinet with Taking consideration also of Cost, would taking the "Leap" To the higher costing FH MK3 give a greater gain and how much? Is it Quantifiable?
Would the Use of Different Grades of "Quality Ply" in both of the builds, again, Narrow or Broaden the performance margin Between the two, with also Taking into consideration the cost of the Material used? Would the Laws of "Ever decreasing Yeild for Price Paid" Be Applicable for these two Builds? What Cabinet would suffer more? and why?
Now Lets talk also on Application.
As im Sure one Cabinet will Have its advantages and Disadvantages in Various Room Layouts and Room Dimensions, What would a Pensil Layout thrive in? What would a FH MK3? Thrive in? What would they Both suffer in Performance wise? And Why?
Would it even be worth Considering the Genre of Music One Favours, to what cabinet would work best? Or Perhaps, what "Aspects" Of Bass, Mid & High to which one Favours, To which Cabinet will Accentuate & Clarify More or Less?
I Cant wait to Hear your Input,
Thanks Guys,
The Pencils Or the Frugel Horn MK3.
A Cost of a Pencil Build Using a Quality Ply I would Speculate to be around $200-$250 Finished.
A Frugel Horn MK3. "Pack" Or Self Cut & Build, Coming to a Figure Slightly Above The Pencils Around $250-$350 Finished.
The Prices for Either would be subject to cost alteration when we also factor in DIY Ability, Tools on Hand & Sourcing Wood Ect.. A Well Seasoned DIYer Knows most Projects turn out to usually cost more than Initially Planned.
So, to Compare Performance of the Driver in either Cabinet with Taking consideration also of Cost, would taking the "Leap" To the higher costing FH MK3 give a greater gain and how much? Is it Quantifiable?
Would the Use of Different Grades of "Quality Ply" in both of the builds, again, Narrow or Broaden the performance margin Between the two, with also Taking into consideration the cost of the Material used? Would the Laws of "Ever decreasing Yeild for Price Paid" Be Applicable for these two Builds? What Cabinet would suffer more? and why?
Now Lets talk also on Application.
As im Sure one Cabinet will Have its advantages and Disadvantages in Various Room Layouts and Room Dimensions, What would a Pensil Layout thrive in? What would a FH MK3? Thrive in? What would they Both suffer in Performance wise? And Why?
Would it even be worth Considering the Genre of Music One Favours, to what cabinet would work best? Or Perhaps, what "Aspects" Of Bass, Mid & High to which one Favours, To which Cabinet will Accentuate & Clarify More or Less?
I Cant wait to Hear your Input,
Thanks Guys,
Yeah, I'm interested too. I just got a pair of new A7.3s from Madisound (great service) and I quickly made up a simple OB to run them in with. Gentle music for about 24 hours and a bit more muscle to it for the last six, and they sound great - if lacking in bass. That's oly to be expected I guess in a small OB set up. Am thinking Pensils or FH3 too, as a first enclosure". My listening room is fairly small but the corners are an option to lift the bass if needed.
If Colin is still offering flatpacks for the Frugal Horns I might be tempted as I don't want to get ply dust all over my shiny new bike!
I plan to leave the drivers running in in the oopen baffle arrangement for a week or so, but then a more optimal enclosure will be a priority.
My concern with the FH3s is losing a little of the point-source nature of the full rangers, but that might be me overthinking.
If Colin is still offering flatpacks for the Frugal Horns I might be tempted as I don't want to get ply dust all over my shiny new bike!
I plan to leave the drivers running in in the oopen baffle arrangement for a week or so, but then a more optimal enclosure will be a priority.
My concern with the FH3s is losing a little of the point-source nature of the full rangers, but that might be me overthinking.
Those are current... i have a few minor additions, i should get a new doc together...
dave
With all drivers I've heard in them to date, the rear horn mouthed FH3 will certainly spread a larger, more diffuse soundstage than the Pensils - the latter which I've found to have more of a the point-sources nature you describe.
I'm familiar enough with both, and my listening spaces to know I could easily live with the sound of either, but the various factors of enclosure size, dispersion characteristics, "critical" listening distance, possible placement constraints and not at the least WAF, were considered in the mental calculus used to arrive at my particular choices. That's of course simple to say, but absent experience with a range of varied designs in the particular listening space, it'd be conjecture - but I'd hazard a guess that if you have the room for a small OB system to properly bloom, the FH3 would be a better bet.
As it turns out, I was demoing a pair of FH3 with EL70 in my downstairs HT system just this morning, and while they work quite well, the daily drivers in this system are the Pensil7. Upstairs is my wife's domain, and while the FH3 work even better in the larger space, she doesn't care for their aesthetics, but quite loves the CastleMTs.
The Pensil for Alp7.3 has approx 1/2 the footprint area of the FH3, and as generally built with forward opening vent, can be placed much closer to rear walls. OTOH, FH3 with the same driver could well be bass heavy if tucked into corners.
To the question of material grade, I'll always recommend quality multi-ply such a Baltic Birch, etc.
see concurrent thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ir-7-3-pencils-vs-ma-alpair-7-3-fhmk-3-a.html
The question of aesthetics is very subjective - as much as I personally admire the shape of the tilted, swooping shape of the FH3, they're a no-go in my house, while the more conventionally shaped Pensils or MicroTowers are a bit hit.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ir-7-3-pencils-vs-ma-alpair-7-3-fhmk-3-a.html
The question of aesthetics is very subjective - as much as I personally admire the shape of the tilted, swooping shape of the FH3, they're a no-go in my house, while the more conventionally shaped Pensils or MicroTowers are a bit hit.
MDF vrs good plywood? Plywood.
Keep in mind that it will take something like 23mm MDF to be as stiff as 15mm baltic birch, and the MDF will have greater energy storage decreasing the speakers DDR -- meaning that as you improve your system, you will reach the limits of your speaker sooner, and won't reach the potential that the A7.3 is capable of.
Also, more people are now using biscuits or dowels to ease alignment, if these are used with MDF it will actually weaken the joints.
I know it is different elsewhere, but here, the difference in cost between 15mm ply and 18mm MDF is unsignificant at the construction end, but, in the case of flat-paks, would dramatically increase shipping costs (has to be shipped as 2 packages instead of 1), so is a more expensive proposition if you are going that route in North America.
dave
Keep in mind that it will take something like 23mm MDF to be as stiff as 15mm baltic birch, and the MDF will have greater energy storage decreasing the speakers DDR -- meaning that as you improve your system, you will reach the limits of your speaker sooner, and won't reach the potential that the A7.3 is capable of.
Also, more people are now using biscuits or dowels to ease alignment, if these are used with MDF it will actually weaken the joints.
I know it is different elsewhere, but here, the difference in cost between 15mm ply and 18mm MDF is unsignificant at the construction end, but, in the case of flat-paks, would dramatically increase shipping costs (has to be shipped as 2 packages instead of 1), so is a more expensive proposition if you are going that route in North America.
dave
Good news for European diyers interested in flat-paks, Colin is doing flat-paks officially now (althou with biscuits which will make construction more difficult), a vendor in The Netherlands is doing test builds and is planning to go ahead, and a Danish maker is contemplating adding flat-paks to his existing stuff (already licenced up).
And for completeness: Ben is up and running in Australia (Melbourne area).
There have also been inquiries from Brisbane, Atlanta, and Toronto.
It should be noted, surprisingly, that all these guys are lessexpensive than quotes coming out of China... you could think of it as jobs coming back home.
dave
Note to anyone that thinks the last couple paragraphs might be advertising: every flat-pak maker is an independent business beholden to no-one (and i recommend they keep their day-job). Once MJK is taken care of, the only requirement is a link to the Frugal-Horn site.
My role is cheerleader.
Cheer away Dave, cheer away!!!
After building half a dozen rectangular boxes and never having had the pleasure of sampling the horn sound, I just cant help myself. For me and my better half the FH3 just has a style that works in our house. And really, at this sort of price for a complete and competent loudspeaker, you cant get in too much trouble no matter which way I/you go.
I spoke to the gents at our local yard (mitre10) just this morning.
1.2m x 2.4m A grade Marine Ply (zero void) Local produce = $410 AU-FRAK ME
1.2m x 2.4m A grade Ply (zero void) Imported from 'no idea' = $110 AU -
This would be way more than I need but cant be sold in smaller sections so may enable me to build both.... Its a hard life eh?!?
Dean
After building half a dozen rectangular boxes and never having had the pleasure of sampling the horn sound, I just cant help myself. For me and my better half the FH3 just has a style that works in our house. And really, at this sort of price for a complete and competent loudspeaker, you cant get in too much trouble no matter which way I/you go.
I spoke to the gents at our local yard (mitre10) just this morning.
1.2m x 2.4m A grade Marine Ply (zero void) Local produce = $410 AU-FRAK ME
1.2m x 2.4m A grade Ply (zero void) Imported from 'no idea' = $110 AU -
This would be way more than I need but cant be sold in smaller sections so may enable me to build both.... Its a hard life eh?!?
Dean
1.2m x 2.4m A grade Marine Ply (zero void) Local produce = $410 AU-FRAK ME
1.2m x 2.4m A grade Ply (zero void) Imported from 'no idea' = $110 AU -
Holey ...
$410 is about what it would cost to air a flat-pak to you -- if i could send a package over 20 kg to Oz.
Marine ply likely has special certifications as more an more safety regs are piled on.
What you want to do is count the number of plies. The more the better. The less expensive ply is abou the same as what we would pay for a premium grade 4x8' sheet (within mm of your size). 5x5 BB runs about a 1/3 that.
dave
Mmm biscuits. I always consume lots of them whilst listening to the results of the latest DIY.
I will PM Colin. Thanks for the info.
Mark
Chris, I know it is hard to quantify. however, is the diffuse vs point-source between the two speakers:
1. Significant in difference?
2. Any sense of being able to quantify?
3. Does the FH3 have significantly more bass weight?
I'm seeking to set up a 10x13 room and like the pinpoint vocal and instrument placement which is one reason for going with a full ranger.
Thanks,
UL
1. Significant in difference?
2. Any sense of being able to quantify?
3. Does the FH3 have significantly more bass weight?
I'm seeking to set up a 10x13 room and like the pinpoint vocal and instrument placement which is one reason for going with a full ranger.
Thanks,
UL
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