My next and more important question is if the distortion performance is superior or inferior to normal cone drivers, for me they are only interesting if they have equal or superior performance, preferably superior. I mean, why buy an expensive driver if a cheap woofer with lots of cheap tweeters does the job better?
And lastly, anyone how is the dispersion pattern is backwards? I would use it in an open or no baffle speaker, so identical forwards and backwards dispersion would be ideal but somehow I doubt it would be that nice.
Hi,
The reason d'aitre of a BMR is its bandwith and dispersion, distortion can be worse.
Icentical response and dispersion front and back is highly unlikely, like most drivers.
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
Well the kit is up on Wilmslow Audio :
The Rhythm King Loudspeaker Kit
Including veneered cabinets and delivery it runs to 900 GBP, 1000 euro.
It seems they are not currently selling the drivers seperately.
http://www.hificritic.com/scene/news.aspx : I can't find any of
the information claimed to posted on the site for the TRK design.
rgds, sreten.
Well the kit is up on Wilmslow Audio :
The Rhythm King Loudspeaker Kit
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Including veneered cabinets and delivery it runs to 900 GBP, 1000 euro.
It seems they are not currently selling the drivers seperately.
http://www.hificritic.com/scene/news.aspx : I can't find any of
the information claimed to posted on the site for the TRK design.
rgds, sreten.
BMR Line Array
Hi Guys,
I have been testing a BMR and had some good results with on wall and free standing designs. I am using a similar version to the CSS driver.
Basically mine has a flat front ie the rubber surround is internal.
I have pics but the files are too big.....I will try and shrink them down and post.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Guys,
I have been testing a BMR and had some good results with on wall and free standing designs. I am using a similar version to the CSS driver.
Basically mine has a flat front ie the rubber surround is internal.
I have pics but the files are too big.....I will try and shrink them down and post.
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
BMR Line Array
Hi,
Sorry previous pic was from 4 years ago, an old on wall GRP cabinet...
The attached are the correct photos!
I have now cut off the base and mounted the array on the wall...very cool indeed, I will need to take some pics of them on the wall.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi,
Sorry previous pic was from 4 years ago, an old on wall GRP cabinet...
The attached are the correct photos!
I have now cut off the base and mounted the array on the wall...very cool indeed, I will need to take some pics of them on the wall.
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
I did the same thing, and have yet to receive a response as well.
overkill; those speakers look awesome. Very nice job.
BMR availability
Hi Guys,
Thanks Jman!
I think the BMR 's are still only available to OEM's in MOQ of 100 units.
I dont think CSS will release any drivers to the DIY market until some good commercial speakers have been reviewed. CSS really want to establish their BMR as a high end unit. It should be even better than the older version I have.
I had 20 left over from a commercial job I did back in 2008. They are really good if used within their limitations, and they were made under licience by a major Chinese company.
My design goals with this speaker were to have an on wall home cinema speaker that looks cool and could be crossed over to subs at 100Hz.
Having no crossover above 100Hz is really great. The speakers do have a very natural full bodied sound with no "missing bits" or fragmented sound that most crossovers display to my ears.
I use a DEQX DSP crossover with a bit of Eq and room correction but this is overkill ( with a small o !) and really a Mini DSP or Behringer type budget DSP would do fine for home cinema.
Even the DSP / Eq built into good AV amps will work really well with these speakers.
The speakers are capable of high SPL's with wide even frequency / power band spread ( very good off axis as well as on axis) and have high efficiency ( 98 dB / 1 watt, but 2.5 Ohm load the way I have wired this pair...) as most home cinema recievers are fairly weak despite thier claimed specs on paper. I use my own power amps that are happy driving 2 Ohm loads...Hypex NCore would be great here.
All in all I am very happy with them and they really can sing on two channel music as well as fill the room with great movie sound tracks.
I think I am going to build some more variations in the summer, building this line array has given me some ideas how to take the BMR to the next level, maybe even up to Manger quality...!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Guys,
Thanks Jman!
I think the BMR 's are still only available to OEM's in MOQ of 100 units.
I dont think CSS will release any drivers to the DIY market until some good commercial speakers have been reviewed. CSS really want to establish their BMR as a high end unit. It should be even better than the older version I have.
I had 20 left over from a commercial job I did back in 2008. They are really good if used within their limitations, and they were made under licience by a major Chinese company.
My design goals with this speaker were to have an on wall home cinema speaker that looks cool and could be crossed over to subs at 100Hz.
Having no crossover above 100Hz is really great. The speakers do have a very natural full bodied sound with no "missing bits" or fragmented sound that most crossovers display to my ears.
I use a DEQX DSP crossover with a bit of Eq and room correction but this is overkill ( with a small o !) and really a Mini DSP or Behringer type budget DSP would do fine for home cinema.
Even the DSP / Eq built into good AV amps will work really well with these speakers.
The speakers are capable of high SPL's with wide even frequency / power band spread ( very good off axis as well as on axis) and have high efficiency ( 98 dB / 1 watt, but 2.5 Ohm load the way I have wired this pair...) as most home cinema recievers are fairly weak despite thier claimed specs on paper. I use my own power amps that are happy driving 2 Ohm loads...Hypex NCore would be great here.
All in all I am very happy with them and they really can sing on two channel music as well as fill the room with great movie sound tracks.
I think I am going to build some more variations in the summer, building this line array has given me some ideas how to take the BMR to the next level, maybe even up to Manger quality...!
Cheers
Derek.
Last edited:
Some pics... on wall BMR Line Array
Hi Guys,
Some pics of the 8 driver array on wall.
Camera phone shots so not great quality but it gives you an idea of the asthetics in typical UK lounge.
Each speaker only weighs 12 Kg so they are easily hung on 1 screw with a raw plug.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Guys,
Some pics of the 8 driver array on wall.
Camera phone shots so not great quality but it gives you an idea of the asthetics in typical UK lounge.
Each speaker only weighs 12 Kg so they are easily hung on 1 screw with a raw plug.
Cheers
Derek.
Attachments
Yea, I was afraid it was going to be something like that. I've been in contact with HiWave for about a year now, because they're supposed to release 3.5" and 6.5" BMR drivers. But the shipping date keeps getting pushed out, so ever few months the date gets moved to some time in the future. I've grown frustrated waiting, so I started to look around. That's how I stumbled upon CSS, but it appears that might not be an option either.
That looks cool as hell, and I bet it sounds fabulous. Not sure I'd want a window right behind my TV though - seems like it could make it difficult to see the picture. BTW, where's your center?
My only exposure to BMR is a pair of Cambridge Audio Min 10's I have hooked up now, which were lent to me by a friend. Imaging and clarity from these tiny speakers just amazes me. The only thing lacking is strength in the lower midrange, where they can sound a bit thin. That's precisely why I want to build a set using larger drivers; once the midrange issue has been resolved I think it would be very difficult to find any fault with the sound.
BMR Line Array sound
Hi Jman,
I also found the lower midrange to be a bit weak with the small BMR's.
The 4.5 inch really is the "Goldielocks" drivers as it still has a lovely high end but enough Sd to move some air when you need to hear percussion and left hand piano, cello etc.
Back in 2008 I found that a pair or 4 drivers per speaker was required to reach high enough SPL's in typical rooms. Both the flat on wall models were ported to help boost the bass and also had passive crossovers.
The crossovers were designed by Chris Ellis, one of the BMR drivers designers and a full on audiuo genius so as good as it gets with passive.
There is still a big step up in performance when you go sealed, DSP active crossovers and Eq. The BMR is a perfect match with DSP and efficient power amps.
My 8 driver line array is EQ'd to enrich the lower mids and then has a Linear Phase 96dB per octave crossover at 100Hz.
The main compromise I made with this design is the centre to centre driver spacing to achieve the curvy asthetics. In theory it suffers from comb filtering but real world in room reflections even out a lot of the nulls and peaks.
The speakers have such fantastic imaging ( over the whole 4 seater sofa )that I dont need a centre channel! Two channel sound staging is rock solid from almost anywhere in the room and the sound from the next room is very much " who is playing piano in the lounge?"
I might be up for a group buy or BMR's in a couple of months, a few guys have already asked me if I get them some drivers. They are very light so shipping is low cost.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Jman,
I also found the lower midrange to be a bit weak with the small BMR's.
The 4.5 inch really is the "Goldielocks" drivers as it still has a lovely high end but enough Sd to move some air when you need to hear percussion and left hand piano, cello etc.
Back in 2008 I found that a pair or 4 drivers per speaker was required to reach high enough SPL's in typical rooms. Both the flat on wall models were ported to help boost the bass and also had passive crossovers.
The crossovers were designed by Chris Ellis, one of the BMR drivers designers and a full on audiuo genius so as good as it gets with passive.
There is still a big step up in performance when you go sealed, DSP active crossovers and Eq. The BMR is a perfect match with DSP and efficient power amps.
My 8 driver line array is EQ'd to enrich the lower mids and then has a Linear Phase 96dB per octave crossover at 100Hz.
The main compromise I made with this design is the centre to centre driver spacing to achieve the curvy asthetics. In theory it suffers from comb filtering but real world in room reflections even out a lot of the nulls and peaks.
The speakers have such fantastic imaging ( over the whole 4 seater sofa )that I dont need a centre channel! Two channel sound staging is rock solid from almost anywhere in the room and the sound from the next room is very much " who is playing piano in the lounge?"
I might be up for a group buy or BMR's in a couple of months, a few guys have already asked me if I get them some drivers. They are very light so shipping is low cost.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi,
Living up to your moniker then ?
There is not much linear phase abouta 96dB(!?)/octave x/o without some serious digital time manipulation.
I remember reading about high order digital linear phase x/o's and
their problems but I cannot recall the details, 96dB seems overkill.
rgds, sreten.
Last edited:
Naim BMR
Hi Guys,
I am not sure who makes the Naim BMR's, also I am not sure there is a great deal of difference between the different suppliers, all variations on the same theme really.
Size of the BMR does make a big difference, basically the same as conventional drivers in as much that you have to balance SPL, efficiency, bandwidth, distortion cabinet shape and volume etc.
BMR 's are are not "breakers of the laws of Physics.." they are different from the crowd but not totally different ie plasma driver or electro static.
The BMR's do have the best off axis performance I have seen / heard, its really jaw dropping at times, esp when used in a line array.
Balancing out their strengths and weakness's, I now believe they are a dream driver for on wall line source designs, esp when you can use DSP to Eq the response, provide steep linear phase crossovers and protect the drivers from bass / low midrange.
My final design is going to use 16 of the 4.5 inch drivers per speaker combined with 6 or 8 6.5 or 8 inch drivers covering the 80Hz to 320Hz band.
Two or three corner located sealed subs 12 and 15 inch will take care of the home cinema end of the deal. Should be fun...!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Seretin
You got me Overkill by name and overkill by nature!
The DEQX is a bit special as its core USP is its time and phase coherent Linear Phase fiters, 48 dB per octave up to 300 dB per octave ( yes three hundred!) and 96dB is the sweet spot for the BMR at 100Hz crossover.
Its all on the DEQX High Definition Audio website... basically it modifies group delay, phase and step response of the individual drivers and / or the on axis frequency response with its room EQ, plus individual driver ( not just speaker) time delay...Phew! It utilises both IIR and FIR filters and has good number crunching ability via twin shark DSP chips. Its latency is low enough you can use it in a high end Blu Ray home cinema with no video sync errors.
I dont use its 6 channels of built in DAC's, better to build your own, also I bypass its power supply and run mine from a good LiPo batter supply.
Hi Guys,
I am not sure who makes the Naim BMR's, also I am not sure there is a great deal of difference between the different suppliers, all variations on the same theme really.
Size of the BMR does make a big difference, basically the same as conventional drivers in as much that you have to balance SPL, efficiency, bandwidth, distortion cabinet shape and volume etc.
BMR 's are are not "breakers of the laws of Physics.." they are different from the crowd but not totally different ie plasma driver or electro static.
The BMR's do have the best off axis performance I have seen / heard, its really jaw dropping at times, esp when used in a line array.
Balancing out their strengths and weakness's, I now believe they are a dream driver for on wall line source designs, esp when you can use DSP to Eq the response, provide steep linear phase crossovers and protect the drivers from bass / low midrange.
My final design is going to use 16 of the 4.5 inch drivers per speaker combined with 6 or 8 6.5 or 8 inch drivers covering the 80Hz to 320Hz band.
Two or three corner located sealed subs 12 and 15 inch will take care of the home cinema end of the deal. Should be fun...!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Seretin
You got me Overkill by name and overkill by nature!
The DEQX is a bit special as its core USP is its time and phase coherent Linear Phase fiters, 48 dB per octave up to 300 dB per octave ( yes three hundred!) and 96dB is the sweet spot for the BMR at 100Hz crossover.
Its all on the DEQX High Definition Audio website... basically it modifies group delay, phase and step response of the individual drivers and / or the on axis frequency response with its room EQ, plus individual driver ( not just speaker) time delay...Phew! It utilises both IIR and FIR filters and has good number crunching ability via twin shark DSP chips. Its latency is low enough you can use it in a high end Blu Ray home cinema with no video sync errors.
I dont use its 6 channels of built in DAC's, better to build your own, also I bypass its power supply and run mine from a good LiPo batter supply.
Rega's brand new top of the range loudspeaker uses a BMR for Midrange only.
They have used their own (modified) tweeter for the highs. Perhaps they wanted the extreme highs to be a bit more directional or a bit more showroom friendly sparkle?
These Speakers will be at the Bristol show in the UK this weekend for anyone interested in high end BMR performance. No doubt Naim Ovators will be their also.
They have used their own (modified) tweeter for the highs. Perhaps they wanted the extreme highs to be a bit more directional or a bit more showroom friendly sparkle?
These Speakers will be at the Bristol show in the UK this weekend for anyone interested in high end BMR performance. No doubt Naim Ovators will be their also.
Rega BMR
Hi Rob,
Interesting, I didnt know Rega were using a BMR driver.
The top end of the 4.5 inch BMR's is really good, cymbals sound solid and have rich decay and tone, but not as extended as a good ribbon.
I prefer the BMR but I think you could have hit the nail on the head with the " showroom sparkle"...
I would say its a bit like the Beyma TPL driver Vs the RAAL Ribbon, if you like the ultimate air and "hifi feel" go for the RAAL, if you want to recreate the amazing dynamics and tone of a cymbal go for the TPL...
The BMR top end is not as good as a TPL by the way, but its a quarter of the price and covers a the 6 main octaves beautifully, Vs the TPL's top 3.5 octaves... Now maybe combine a line array or BMR's with two or 4 TPL's per side... but thats big bucks right there, then add on the sub 300Hz band...
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Rob,
Interesting, I didnt know Rega were using a BMR driver.
The top end of the 4.5 inch BMR's is really good, cymbals sound solid and have rich decay and tone, but not as extended as a good ribbon.
I prefer the BMR but I think you could have hit the nail on the head with the " showroom sparkle"...
I would say its a bit like the Beyma TPL driver Vs the RAAL Ribbon, if you like the ultimate air and "hifi feel" go for the RAAL, if you want to recreate the amazing dynamics and tone of a cymbal go for the TPL...
The BMR top end is not as good as a TPL by the way, but its a quarter of the price and covers a the 6 main octaves beautifully, Vs the TPL's top 3.5 octaves... Now maybe combine a line array or BMR's with two or 4 TPL's per side... but thats big bucks right there, then add on the sub 300Hz band...
Cheers
Derek.
Derek,
It sounds like BMR's could be a force for good in the future. It's all about bang for buck for those of us in the real world.
Probably the Heil AMT's in Adam Audio's top speakers are the best I have heard in terms of cleanest upper treble extension.
I use the Linkwitz Pluto 2.1's with 2 inch fullrange drivers used as treble units. The treble is glorious, I wish more cone and dome speakers could sound this good.
I believe that broad even dispersion and smooth integration with the bass/mid and low distortion in the low and mid treble is far more important that ultimate frequency extension. I would probably like the BMR drivers when done well.
The harsh sound from poor crossovers and over taxed drive units (with distortion where the ear is most sensitive) can lead some audiophiles to seek out exotic treble units with the promise of incredible bat eared frequency extension capability, yet most of these guys will never be able to hear let alone reproduce such sounds even if it even exists on the recording.
It sounds like BMR's could be a force for good in the future. It's all about bang for buck for those of us in the real world.
Probably the Heil AMT's in Adam Audio's top speakers are the best I have heard in terms of cleanest upper treble extension.
I use the Linkwitz Pluto 2.1's with 2 inch fullrange drivers used as treble units. The treble is glorious, I wish more cone and dome speakers could sound this good.
I believe that broad even dispersion and smooth integration with the bass/mid and low distortion in the low and mid treble is far more important that ultimate frequency extension. I would probably like the BMR drivers when done well.
The harsh sound from poor crossovers and over taxed drive units (with distortion where the ear is most sensitive) can lead some audiophiles to seek out exotic treble units with the promise of incredible bat eared frequency extension capability, yet most of these guys will never be able to hear let alone reproduce such sounds even if it even exists on the recording.