One shouldn't jump into too rush conclusions, my apologies. It is a pity that no element fits the bill of a relatively cheap and relatively good no problem, just go thing.
Let me point to one other element, which I don't know anything about but which is given some praise for linearity and which also on 1 x 1 meter baffle will go down to 50 Hz - 4 dB, not bad. However you would have to stay in sweetspot as spread is pretty bad in midrange according to the sellers.
Here is a link: HIGH-TECH-HIFI go to '8. Einzellautsprechers' then to '30 cm Bässe' and have a look at Rockwood / Senon DY 1256 U 22,50 EUR. That's the unit. It cheap enough just to give a try. And it might be that a simple 6 dB/oct tweeter cross can save the bill. No problem to communicate in English with the seller.
/Erling
Let me point to one other element, which I don't know anything about but which is given some praise for linearity and which also on 1 x 1 meter baffle will go down to 50 Hz - 4 dB, not bad. However you would have to stay in sweetspot as spread is pretty bad in midrange according to the sellers.
Here is a link: HIGH-TECH-HIFI go to '8. Einzellautsprechers' then to '30 cm Bässe' and have a look at Rockwood / Senon DY 1256 U 22,50 EUR. That's the unit. It cheap enough just to give a try. And it might be that a simple 6 dB/oct tweeter cross can save the bill. No problem to communicate in English with the seller.
/Erling
The specs look ok on that speaker, and it is indeed cheap - thanks. Now I want to convert my entire HT to fullrange 
Although I'm not sure if it's good enough for my main rig... My current speakers used to cost half the price of a house when new (Mordaunt-Short System 442) and they still kick proverbial a*s. What I mean is I want to upgrade, not just make a sideways move...
In the same shop you linked I found this interesting speaker: Kics 535 RFPJ. Just look at the numbers: 100dB sensitivity, Qts 0.69, Fs 29Hz and 21" diameter, all for 233EUR. The ultimate open baffle bass driver
Although I'm not sure if it's good enough for my main rig... My current speakers used to cost half the price of a house when new (Mordaunt-Short System 442) and they still kick proverbial a*s. What I mean is I want to upgrade, not just make a sideways move... In the same shop you linked I found this interesting speaker: Kics 535 RFPJ. Just look at the numbers: 100dB sensitivity, Qts 0.69, Fs 29Hz and 21" diameter, all for 233EUR. The ultimate open baffle bass driver
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Kics 535 RFPJ. Just look at the numbers: 100dB sensitivity, Qts 0.69, Fs 29Hz and 21" diameter, all for 233EUR. The ultimate open baffle bass driver
Kind of puny
... https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=131&products_id=8583
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
Kind of puny
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
Dear Lord, what is this thing intended for? Playing music to whales??... lol
Actually, looking at its freq response graph, it doesn't go nearly as low as you would expect... I don't get it... What is the point of such mastodon driver then?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Maybe this would work better.
I came across this thread because I wanted to create a similar speaker using a FR unit, no crossover.
I have alot of experience with Bastanis (no XO) & more recently the Hawthornes (simple XO). There is certainly alot of detail lost in the XO.
To get serious bass from a minimal OB design requires an active sub. The Hawthorne Augie is brilliant, cheap & has idea parameters for minimal OB design. This sub goes subsonic with floor shaking capability. I power this with the an XTZ sub amp (£260) which you can vary the XO point. Simple & allows creativity with the baffle design. I use 38mm MDF now.
For DIY the Bastani units are expensive, & I am going to experiment with an AN Super 10 paired with a 15" Augie in minimal baffle & see what happens. These must be used away from the rear wall. Ignore positioning in some of the pics!
I tend to disregard all the science & just go for it!
A few of my designs. The Bastanis (using Dipole 18 woofer from AE Speakers) take alot of beating!
Bastani Monster
Hawthorne Trios 2 x 15 Auguies / SSI dual concentric
Hawthorne Duets 1 x 15 Augie / SI dual concentric
Hawthorne 1015
I dont get alot of time to answer on the forums, so if anyone wants more info, please PM me.
I have alot of experience with Bastanis (no XO) & more recently the Hawthornes (simple XO). There is certainly alot of detail lost in the XO.
To get serious bass from a minimal OB design requires an active sub. The Hawthorne Augie is brilliant, cheap & has idea parameters for minimal OB design. This sub goes subsonic with floor shaking capability. I power this with the an XTZ sub amp (£260) which you can vary the XO point. Simple & allows creativity with the baffle design. I use 38mm MDF now.
For DIY the Bastani units are expensive, & I am going to experiment with an AN Super 10 paired with a 15" Augie in minimal baffle & see what happens. These must be used away from the rear wall. Ignore positioning in some of the pics!
I tend to disregard all the science & just go for it!
A few of my designs. The Bastanis (using Dipole 18 woofer from AE Speakers) take alot of beating!
Bastani Monster
Hawthorne Trios 2 x 15 Auguies / SSI dual concentric
Hawthorne Duets 1 x 15 Augie / SI dual concentric
Hawthorne 1015
I dont get alot of time to answer on the forums, so if anyone wants more info, please PM me.
Martin, if one were to biamp with an active XO like the MiniDSP (my system of choice), allowing individual drive control, wouldn't that open up a whole bunch of FR candidates if you don't have to worry about matching efficiency? Personally, I love the idea of biamp/active-xo anyway.
I'm still waiting for my Eminence woofers which have been on back order for about a decade now, but meanwhile, I wanted to just sample what OB offers, so today I hooked up a pair of the $12.50 GRS 8" drivers to 5" deep cardboard produce boxes about 23" x 16" using Edge to place them. I'll tell you, it's already as if I just released the music from prison or something compared with my large vintage EV 12TRXB reflex boxes. And I was quite surprised that I had as much bass as I did. It was obviously not extended far, maybe 200 hz or so, but it was nice sounding, not boomy and pretty tight. I think that when I get the whole thing done with the H frames and electronics and better FR drivers, it's going to be hard to beat at any price.
One thing I noticed right off when A/B'ing with the EV's is that the 8" GRS's have a much wider dispersion. I've always thought that the EV's (12TRXB drivers) were pretty narrow, but this showed it. Is this a typical trait of larger drivers? I may want to keep my drivers at 8" or less if it is. I liked the wide listening angle and it is plenty of sound for my large-ish living room. I really want to get the woofers and electronics done now.
I haven't yet bought better FR drivers, but I think I like the mid-size idea so far, maybe the Wild Burro Betsy with pretty good reviews (I wish there were more reviews though) and good price for an 8". For a time, I thought about Alpairs, but I think Planet10 suggested here that they may be too fragile for OB use. Anyway, baby steps.
Also, the shallow produce boxes made me wonder if the OP could benefit from a shallow U or H baffle to extend the bass of a single driver a bit, over just a flat baffle, and still get the OB benefit. What do you think?
That was only the case when they are used without a HP. Very succesful OBs have been used with at least A7 and A12. I wouldn't try running any of my favorite Fostex without a high pass either. To do that you would need to use a driver that is happy on a baffle all by itself (visaton B200, Betsy...)
With the miniDSP you could, i expect, add an extra filter a couple octaves below the XO to add further protection id you were worried.
dave
IMHO, the best advice so far, although I wonder if adding a U or H shape may help the the bass some. Heck, I just tried it with stiff cardboard for a quick try. It worked, and better than I thought.
Mostly, I just wanted to point out that driver placement on the baffle is very important. If you play around with the free program "Edge" Home of the Edge, it's quite amazing what a difference just small changes in location can make on the baffle. I sometimes see examples of OB design where the FR driver is placed in the center of the baffle, which it seems is pretty much the worst place for it in terms of the SPL curve of the system.
I haven't done this yet, but I think the next OB I make, I will try to make it with the driver on an intermediate baffle and mount it in such a way that the exact position can be adjusted around an over-sized hole in the main baffle.
Okay Dave, thanks for pointing that out as I missed that part. Yes, one of the nice things about the MiniDSP is that some of the crossover plugins have good additional PEQ (and also REW support) which I'm sure will help to tweak the whole system when I'm done.
Biamping using an active crossover with the built in features of the miniDSP, the dBx, or the Behringer introduces tremendous flexibilty for the driver selection. So yes, by biamping you open up a lot more full range drivers as candidates for a two way OB. The only thing to watch out for is asking too much from the woofer, if the efficiency of the full range driver is too high you end up pushing the woofer very hard.
Once it became clear that the OP had limited himself to only one driver without any filters I concluded the project was doomed. A U or H frame will just introduce even more problems for the single unfiltered driver concept.
Martin
The OP's choice of the Ciare CH250 has a whizzer cone. Isn't that just a mechanical crossover? I would think that a "no crossover" purist would want to avoid something like that as well.
Not that I have anything against whizzers; they seem to be pretty ubiquitous in full ranger designs, but they do seem to be a crossover system.
I respect the quest for simplicity; I strive for it myself, but sometimes you just shoot yourself in the foot by trying to be too strict. Having said all that, it would be interesting to hear the results of his quest.
Not that I have anything against whizzers; they seem to be pretty ubiquitous in full ranger designs, but they do seem to be a crossover system.
I respect the quest for simplicity; I strive for it myself, but sometimes you just shoot yourself in the foot by trying to be too strict. Having said all that, it would be interesting to hear the results of his quest.
Have you ever tried your 12TRXB's in an open baffle? To get the best results you'd need to put it in a big baffle a la PHY-HP and use a low damping factor amplifier, but I think you'll be surprised at the result.
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