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Ok, so I want to build my first open-baffle full-range
Ok, so I want to build my first open-baffle full-range
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Old 31st March 2011, 04:08 PM   #61
skorpion is offline skorpion  Sweden
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One shouldn't jump into too rush conclusions, my apologies. It is a pity that no element fits the bill of a relatively cheap and relatively good no problem, just go thing.

Let me point to one other element, which I don't know anything about but which is given some praise for linearity and which also on 1 x 1 meter baffle will go down to 50 Hz - 4 dB, not bad. However you would have to stay in sweetspot as spread is pretty bad in midrange according to the sellers.

Here is a link: HIGH-TECH-HIFI go to '8. Einzellautsprechers' then to '30 cm Bsse' and have a look at Rockwood / Senon DY 1256 U 22,50 EUR. That's the unit. It cheap enough just to give a try. And it might be that a simple 6 dB/oct tweeter cross can save the bill. No problem to communicate in English with the seller.

/Erling
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Old 1st April 2011, 10:45 AM   #62
uncle_leon is offline uncle_leon  Poland
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The specs look ok on that speaker, and it is indeed cheap - thanks. Now I want to convert my entire HT to fullrange Although I'm not sure if it's good enough for my main rig... My current speakers used to cost half the price of a house when new (Mordaunt-Short System 442) and they still kick proverbial a*s. What I mean is I want to upgrade, not just make a sideways move... :P

In the same shop you linked I found this interesting speaker: Kics 535 RFPJ. Just look at the numbers: 100dB sensitivity, Qts 0.69, Fs 29Hz and 21" diameter, all for 233EUR. The ultimate open baffle bass driver
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Last edited by uncle_leon; 1st April 2011 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 1st April 2011, 11:24 AM   #63
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Ok, so I want to build my first open-baffle full-range
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Originally Posted by uncle_leon View Post
Kics 535 RFPJ. Just look at the numbers: 100dB sensitivity, Qts 0.69, Fs 29Hz and 21" diameter, all for 233EUR. The ultimate open baffle bass driver
Kind of puny ... https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=8583

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dave
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Old 1st April 2011, 11:27 AM   #64
almarcy is offline almarcy  United States
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Open Baffle size is straighforward. Every time you double the minimum distance from the front of the driver to the back (around the baffle) you lower the cutoff freq by an octave. To start: one foot is approximately 1100 Hz.
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Old 1st April 2011, 11:48 AM   #65
uncle_leon is offline uncle_leon  Poland
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Kind of puny ... https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=8583

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dave
Dear Lord, what is this thing intended for? Playing music to whales??... lol

Actually, looking at its freq response graph, it doesn't go nearly as low as you would expect... I don't get it... What is the point of such mastodon driver then?
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Old 2nd April 2011, 11:49 PM   #66
Racket Scientist is offline Racket Scientist  United States
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Maybe this would work better.
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Old 3rd April 2011, 08:39 AM   #67
k9vap is offline k9vap  United Kingdom
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I came across this thread because I wanted to create a similar speaker using a FR unit, no crossover.

I have alot of experience with Bastanis (no XO) & more recently the Hawthornes (simple XO). There is certainly alot of detail lost in the XO.

To get serious bass from a minimal OB design requires an active sub. The Hawthorne Augie is brilliant, cheap & has idea parameters for minimal OB design. This sub goes subsonic with floor shaking capability. I power this with the an XTZ sub amp (260) which you can vary the XO point. Simple & allows creativity with the baffle design. I use 38mm MDF now.

For DIY the Bastani units are expensive, & I am going to experiment with an AN Super 10 paired with a 15" Augie in minimal baffle & see what happens. These must be used away from the rear wall. Ignore positioning in some of the pics!

I tend to disregard all the science & just go for it!

A few of my designs. The Bastanis (using Dipole 18 woofer from AE Speakers) take alot of beating!

Bastani Monster
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Hawthorne Trios 2 x 15 Auguies / SSI dual concentric
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Hawthorne Duets 1 x 15 Augie / SI dual concentric
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Hawthorne 1015
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I dont get alot of time to answer on the forums, so if anyone wants more info, please PM me.
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Old 6th April 2011, 07:18 AM   #68
sprinter is offline sprinter  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJK View Post
I believe all of your goals can be achieved, even getting bass down to 40 Hz or maybe even lower. My recommendation would be to marry a Goldwood 18" or Eminence Alpha 15A with a single small full range driver (3" or 4") with an efficiency of 88 - 90 dB/W/m. You could go OB or H frame plus OB. You will need a crossover to get the optimum response. Think about trading off the crossover against overloading a full range driver with bass input and the nasty response that will result.

A higher efficiency 6" or 8" driver will require muiltiple woofers and a bigger system. I recently sized a really nice OB speaker that paired a Fostex FE-206E with two Eminence Alpha 15A woofers using a second order crossover, the SPL response was 98 dB/W/m down to 40 Hz (-6 dB).

A crossover is a requirement. Active crossovers are easy. The passive crossover has to be designed carefully for it to work well. A poorly designed passive crossover can ruin the system's performance. Not using a crossover will definitely create problems that are as bad if not worse then a poorly designed crossover. I believe that the optimum solution includes a crossover, anything else is a compromise.

This is probably the easiest type of speaker system to design and get right the first time.

Martin
Martin, if one were to biamp with an active XO like the MiniDSP (my system of choice), allowing individual drive control, wouldn't that open up a whole bunch of FR candidates if you don't have to worry about matching efficiency? Personally, I love the idea of biamp/active-xo anyway.

I'm still waiting for my Eminence woofers which have been on back order for about a decade now, but meanwhile, I wanted to just sample what OB offers, so today I hooked up a pair of the $12.50 GRS 8" drivers to 5" deep cardboard produce boxes about 23" x 16" using Edge to place them. I'll tell you, it's already as if I just released the music from prison or something compared with my large vintage EV 12TRXB reflex boxes. And I was quite surprised that I had as much bass as I did. It was obviously not extended far, maybe 200 hz or so, but it was nice sounding, not boomy and pretty tight. I think that when I get the whole thing done with the H frames and electronics and better FR drivers, it's going to be hard to beat at any price.
One thing I noticed right off when A/B'ing with the EV's is that the 8" GRS's have a much wider dispersion. I've always thought that the EV's (12TRXB drivers) were pretty narrow, but this showed it. Is this a typical trait of larger drivers? I may want to keep my drivers at 8" or less if it is. I liked the wide listening angle and it is plenty of sound for my large-ish living room. I really want to get the woofers and electronics done now.

I haven't yet bought better FR drivers, but I think I like the mid-size idea so far, maybe the Wild Burro Betsy with pretty good reviews (I wish there were more reviews though) and good price for an 8". For a time, I thought about Alpairs, but I think Planet10 suggested here that they may be too fragile for OB use. Anyway, baby steps.

Also, the shallow produce boxes made me wonder if the OP could benefit from a shallow U or H baffle to extend the bass of a single driver a bit, over just a flat baffle, and still get the OB benefit. What do you think?
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Old 6th April 2011, 07:27 AM   #69
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Ok, so I want to build my first open-baffle full-range
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Originally Posted by sprinter View Post
I thought about Alpairs, but I think Planet10 suggested here that they may be too fragile for OB use.
That was only the case when they are used without a HP. Very succesful OBs have been used with at least A7 and A12. I wouldn't try running any of my favorite Fostex without a high pass either. To do that you would need to use a driver that is happy on a baffle all by itself (visaton B200, Betsy...)

With the miniDSP you could, i expect, add an extra filter a couple octaves below the XO to add further protection id you were worried.

dave
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Old 6th April 2011, 07:57 AM   #70
sprinter is offline sprinter  United States
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Originally Posted by Racket Scientist View Post
Based on what's been said so far, I'd advise you to pick the fullrange speaker that looks good to you, and put it on a cheap plywood, old school 33 inch wide baffle and give it a listen. Then tweak from there.
IMHO, the best advice so far, although I wonder if adding a U or H shape may help the the bass some. Heck, I just tried it with stiff cardboard for a quick try. It worked, and better than I thought.

Mostly, I just wanted to point out that driver placement on the baffle is very important. If you play around with the free program "Edge" Home of the Edge, it's quite amazing what a difference just small changes in location can make on the baffle. I sometimes see examples of OB design where the FR driver is placed in the center of the baffle, which it seems is pretty much the worst place for it in terms of the SPL curve of the system.

I haven't done this yet, but I think the next OB I make, I will try to make it with the driver on an intermediate baffle and mount it in such a way that the exact position can be adjusted around an over-sized hole in the main baffle.
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