So everyone seems to say Alpair 7 is the way to go. Is that the metal or paper cone Alpair 7?
I like the idea of higher sensitivity, like the Fostex FE126En 4" it looked attractive to me because it's 93dB, but I hear they may be a little shouty and lacking bass.
What about the Tang Band W5-1611SAF (am I looking at the right one? It says it's 5")?
I'm guessing that the TB being a larger driver with a lower Fs may have slightly better bass? But I also think everything is a trade off, so what would be the shortcomings of the Tang Band in comparison to the Alpair 7 in an FH3? (Looks like the TB is a couple grams heavier, I'm not sure if that's a factor)
BTW, I think I'll have plenty of power, 40W of LM3886 in Neurochrome Modulous86 flavor. My room isn't that large either. I enjoy listening softly from 6 or 10 feet away with only a Watt or so of power.
My concern is that I have a bad habit of turning up the stereo in the living room so that it's loud and clear in the next room while I'm cooking dinner. I thought efficiency in that regard would be my friend, and that there's more potential for me to damage a less sensitive speaker.
I like the idea of higher sensitivity, like the Fostex FE126En 4" it looked attractive to me because it's 93dB, but I hear they may be a little shouty and lacking bass.
What about the Tang Band W5-1611SAF (am I looking at the right one? It says it's 5")?
I'm guessing that the TB being a larger driver with a lower Fs may have slightly better bass? But I also think everything is a trade off, so what would be the shortcomings of the Tang Band in comparison to the Alpair 7 in an FH3? (Looks like the TB is a couple grams heavier, I'm not sure if that's a factor)
BTW, I think I'll have plenty of power, 40W of LM3886 in Neurochrome Modulous86 flavor. My room isn't that large either. I enjoy listening softly from 6 or 10 feet away with only a Watt or so of power.
My concern is that I have a bad habit of turning up the stereo in the living room so that it's loud and clear in the next room while I'm cooking dinner. I thought efficiency in that regard would be my friend, and that there's more potential for me to damage a less sensitive speaker.
At some point the selection of drivers for these, or many DIY enclosures that allow such freedom of choice will be a matter of personal taste- which is unfortunately not something that can easily be modelled, predicted or demonstrable by way of recorded sound clips, or You-Tube videos. As valid a tool as the latter two might be in shortening a list of candidates, I think there are just too many variables in the chain upon which to make a final decision.
Sooner or later a leap of faith is required, after which you can recalibrate your assessment of recommendations by others.
As to the question of "paper or metal" re the Alpair 7, I'd been very happy with Mark's much earlier paper driver in this category - the now out of production CSS EL70 - of which some members of these fora will recall my strongly worded endorsements. I was anticipating the new A7P would be cut from the same cloth, but to my ears, it somewhat missed that target. I would definitely choose either the A7.3, or even the new CHS70/Pluvia 7 over the A7P, which might well suit a particular demographic perfectly.
Re the FE126En- it's probably safe to say that while its sensitivity and rising HF response and accompanying requirement for more reinforcement from either "enclosure gain below the mass corner" to paraphrase the real gurus, careful EQ / BSC, or combinations thereof may still suit some folks' applications, I find the MA to be as dynamic with appropriate power - which is silly cheap to buy these days unless one is hopelessly besotted with creamy flea-power SE DHTs or the like, and moreover simply less fatiguing over extended listening sessions.
I'm sure I could find a more lucid manner on which to elaborate on any of the above - there are probably other factors to consider when using the FE126 - one such being its more limited X-max (as comparable as ratings for the two might be) - but the after dinner gummy and two glasses of nice house white have dulled that nib for now.
Now, time for some words from the peanut-gallery
Sooner or later a leap of faith is required, after which you can recalibrate your assessment of recommendations by others.
As to the question of "paper or metal" re the Alpair 7, I'd been very happy with Mark's much earlier paper driver in this category - the now out of production CSS EL70 - of which some members of these fora will recall my strongly worded endorsements. I was anticipating the new A7P would be cut from the same cloth, but to my ears, it somewhat missed that target. I would definitely choose either the A7.3, or even the new CHS70/Pluvia 7 over the A7P, which might well suit a particular demographic perfectly.
Re the FE126En- it's probably safe to say that while its sensitivity and rising HF response and accompanying requirement for more reinforcement from either "enclosure gain below the mass corner" to paraphrase the real gurus, careful EQ / BSC, or combinations thereof may still suit some folks' applications, I find the MA to be as dynamic with appropriate power - which is silly cheap to buy these days unless one is hopelessly besotted with creamy flea-power SE DHTs or the like, and moreover simply less fatiguing over extended listening sessions.
I'm sure I could find a more lucid manner on which to elaborate on any of the above - there are probably other factors to consider when using the FE126 - one such being its more limited X-max (as comparable as ratings for the two might be) - but the after dinner gummy and two glasses of nice house white have dulled that nib for now.
Now, time for some words from the peanut-gallery
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I really like the A7. And much more so than the FE126en
While not an exact apples to apples comparison, I replaced a pair of BK12s with FE126en with FH3s with Alpair 7eN (I think that's right, they're eNaBLed).
The A7s play higher, lower and are more dynamic. And certainly get louder without sounding strained as the FE126s did. While the 126s sounded very nice, with excellent midrange, these A7s are just something special. They really are on another level.
While not an exact apples to apples comparison, I replaced a pair of BK12s with FE126en with FH3s with Alpair 7eN (I think that's right, they're eNaBLed).
The A7s play higher, lower and are more dynamic. And certainly get louder without sounding strained as the FE126s did. While the 126s sounded very nice, with excellent midrange, these A7s are just something special. They really are on another level.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I posed a silly question I know, but you really got to the heart of the matter.
That being said, I think I'll build a few pair. I know I could use the supra baffle, but if I just build a few pair, then I could gift some to family. They are ones who would say that they won't be able to tell the difference anyway. It will be fun for me to see if I can tell.
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Thanks Ray, I think I'll take the FE126en off my list for now. There's more to it than efficiency, and that was the only thing I liked about it.
I'll definitely build a pair with Alpair 7. I think I want to try the Tang Band too, even if they don't "sound" good enough to me, the bullet like dust caps will make the TB "look" like a great gift. I bet they sound more than decent.
Thanks guys.
The 4in MA drivers were the baseline drivers when FH3 was designed, so are the 'default' recommendation, with the Alpair 7.3 being the pick of them. If you want to try a TB unit at some point, I'd suggest one of their 4in units, W4-1320, W4-2142 should do quite nicely. Just watch out for clearance -the big magnets will get very near the internal baffle.
Okay, a build question this time:
Why in the 18mm plan is the Front Baffle in between rather than in front of the top and bottom plate? I can't see why I couldn't take that 18mm width away from the length of the top and bottom plate and make the baffle a little taller so it's in front. But I ask because I thought there must be a reason it was done that way, unless it was a mistake.
4.8 degrees, 4.9 degrees, 5 degrees,.. I feel like I have a hard enough time setting my table saw to dead-nuts-on-90. How far off would I be if I just made all the angels 5 degrees?
. I have a router bit which will cut 5 degrees every time.
I hear that baffle width is important in speaker design. It seems to me if one followed the "15mm plan for 18mm baffle" that the finished product should end up about 6mm narrower than using 18mm throughout the whole speaker. On the other hand, using the "straight 18mm plan" may result in the finished product being more sturdy overall, which is also important. Which is the best plan to follow and why?
Why in the 18mm plan is the Front Baffle in between rather than in front of the top and bottom plate? I can't see why I couldn't take that 18mm width away from the length of the top and bottom plate and make the baffle a little taller so it's in front. But I ask because I thought there must be a reason it was done that way, unless it was a mistake.
4.8 degrees, 4.9 degrees, 5 degrees,.. I feel like I have a hard enough time setting my table saw to dead-nuts-on-90. How far off would I be if I just made all the angels 5 degrees?
. I have a router bit which will cut 5 degrees every time.
I hear that baffle width is important in speaker design. It seems to me if one followed the "15mm plan for 18mm baffle" that the finished product should end up about 6mm narrower than using 18mm throughout the whole speaker. On the other hand, using the "straight 18mm plan" may result in the finished product being more sturdy overall, which is also important. Which is the best plan to follow and why?
Because that's how Dave drew it. Simple as that. If you want to do it some other way, go ahead. Just don't change any of the internal dimensions.
I can't speak for the angels. As an ordinary mortal ;^) -fractionally. Since many hundreds of FH3 enclosures have been built, the plans don't seem to be causing too many issues, and I imagine most people work to within a reasonable tolerance.
6mm difference will not result in audible issues under in-room conditions. It will shift diffraction mode
When you first asked this, I sort of dismissed the question since laying towels on there wasn't an option. But I was messing around yesterday and tried it, and to my surprise the towels just killed the imaging. It didn't sound bad, but you can sure hear the difference. I'm glad I like it better without towels
As for the A7.3, I was skeptical going in that I could ever warm up to a little full range, but they have won me over. Impressive sound, sharp attacks without sibilance, very surprising bass in the Frugel Horn implementation. I don't know how any of the other drivers fare, but these little guys do a fine job.
Alex - some observations:
Having seen and worked from literally hundreds of Dave's drawings over the past 15yrs, I'm probably as qualified as anyone to comment on what might be inconsistencies among different versions for same basic design - "It happens"
For what it's worth, "we" had settled on using 15mm ply for most of our builds as the best compromise between cost and performance, and several of the published designs have evolved into commercial flat pack kits. Some of these - the entire FH family is a prime example - were conceived to be suitable as basic platforms that with minor adjustments to port tuning and/or fiber fill level can work with a wide range of drivers from more than one manufacturer. To allow for recessed mounting of drivers with thicker mounting bezels of makes such the Mark Audio, some models of Fostex, Tang Bands, etc, 18mm was selected for the front baffles of the FH3 & XL, Pensils, and some of the "-onkens".
I personally prefer the cleaner look and increased ease of build to whenever possible have the tops and bottoms inset behind the fronts - so the fronts and backs run full length, and with the sides overlapping all panels. Dave doesn't always draw them that way, so I've been known to revise his drawings for my own cut-lists.
While I have access to a sliding table saw with digital angle gauge for cutting the angled parts for our kits, I also use a small magnetic mitre gauge* that's invaluable for accurate setting on a fixed saw. It's calibrated to 2 decimal points, but a basic 5dg has proven to be more that adequate. A great $40 or so investment.
* page 2:
http://www.frugel-horn.com/downloads/Frugel-Horn-Lite-0v9-290615.pdf
Having seen and worked from literally hundreds of Dave's drawings over the past 15yrs, I'm probably as qualified as anyone to comment on what might be inconsistencies among different versions for same basic design - "It happens"
For what it's worth, "we" had settled on using 15mm ply for most of our builds as the best compromise between cost and performance, and several of the published designs have evolved into commercial flat pack kits. Some of these - the entire FH family is a prime example - were conceived to be suitable as basic platforms that with minor adjustments to port tuning and/or fiber fill level can work with a wide range of drivers from more than one manufacturer. To allow for recessed mounting of drivers with thicker mounting bezels of makes such the Mark Audio, some models of Fostex, Tang Bands, etc, 18mm was selected for the front baffles of the FH3 & XL, Pensils, and some of the "-onkens".
I personally prefer the cleaner look and increased ease of build to whenever possible have the tops and bottoms inset behind the fronts - so the fronts and backs run full length, and with the sides overlapping all panels. Dave doesn't always draw them that way, so I've been known to revise his drawings for my own cut-lists.
While I have access to a sliding table saw with digital angle gauge for cutting the angled parts for our kits, I also use a small magnetic mitre gauge* that's invaluable for accurate setting on a fixed saw. It's calibrated to 2 decimal points, but a basic 5dg has proven to be more that adequate. A great $40 or so investment.
* page 2:
http://www.frugel-horn.com/downloads/Frugel-Horn-Lite-0v9-290615.pdf
+1 and this way is structurally superior, especially WRT high aspect ratio cabs since the acoustical pressure runs parallel; so top, bottom take by far the most 'pounding'.
GM
Chalk up another one on that front. Although since my skill with tools is minimal and generally with engines (not as much of that recently) I'm probably not in a great position to comment.
A huge Thank You to everyone! I'm a car guy too Scott, and all of you have more experience than I with loudspeakers. I find it to be incredibly kind that such designs available to DIY community, and the undying support is appreciated more than I can express.
Quote: I personally prefer the cleaner look and increased ease of build to whenever possible have the tops and bottoms inset behind the fronts - so the fronts and backs run full length, and with the sides overlapping all panels.
-Chris
Perfect I can do that! Being that one can get Two Frugal Horns from One sheet, I'm moving this project to be sooner than later.
-Chris
Perfect I can do that! Being that one can get Two Frugal Horns from One sheet, I'm moving this project to be sooner than later.
Alex - have you taken a look at this thread? While this shows the assembly of the P10 flatpack kit, which includes dadoes on side panels to aid in alignment, the general steps should work out for a completely hand-bombed pair.
Pay particular attention to chamfering of the rear side of driver mounting hole before attaching the front slanted panel.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...-mk3-flat-pak-mock-assembly-instructions.html
Pay particular attention to chamfering of the rear side of driver mounting hole before attaching the front slanted panel.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plan...-mk3-flat-pak-mock-assembly-instructions.html
Yes, I found that chrisb, thanks.
. I'll definitely chamfer the back side too.When you first asked this, I sort of dismissed the question since laying towels on there wasn't an option. But I was messing around yesterday and tried it, and to my surprise the towels just killed the imaging. It didn't sound bad, but you can sure hear the difference. I'm glad I like it better without towels
As for the A7.3, I was skeptical going in that I could ever warm up to a little full range, but they have won me over. Impressive sound, sharp attacks without sibilance, very surprising bass in the Frugel Horn implementation. I don't know how any of the other drivers fare, but these little guys do a fine job.
That's good that it works so well like that. My first pair will go in the living room, not desk.
At any rate, I appreciate the comments about the little mid range drivers, for I too have been very skeptical in the past; but the fast attack is really what I'm looking for; so that's reassuring.
Cheers!
AlexQS
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