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-   -   Frugel-Horn Mk3 (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3.html)

chrisb 25th November 2014 06:43 PM

freax -

relocating any of the candidate drivers for the FH3 to the top panel would change the loading of the horn - it'd work in the strictest sense that you'd still get a fair amount of output, but certainly not optimally tuned for "below the mass corner"

I doubt few folks would find the FE126 needing a tweeter

The reflection of the FH3 & XL's rear radiation adds tremendously to the dimension of soundstage - how well they fill the room will depend on its size, and the presence of furniture, etc

To date, I've heard at least 10 dozen different models of drivers in the FH3, and of those widely available, my choice so far would have to be the Alpair7.3. My absolute favorite is the MAOP version of that model - but those are rather rare - I'm told I have the only pair outside of Japan so far.


There is a very nice performing, compact footprint enclosure with a second, top mounted FR driver that might also be worth considering - the Castle Microtower - page 4 in the plan set http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/microTower-maps-290412.pdf

I've built 2 variations on this design - the most recent one with top angled forward at 5dg. Its compact footprint simply works better for "our" furniture arrangement.

freax 28th November 2014 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisb (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3-post4133170.html#post4133170)
freax -

relocating any of the candidate drivers for the FH3 to the top panel would change the loading of the horn - it'd work in the strictest sense that you'd still get a fair amount of output, but certainly not optimally tuned for "below the mass corner"

Roger.

Quote:

I doubt few folks would find the FE126 needing a tweeter
Thats just fan-talk. They do need a tweeter, badly, but it depends upon the kind of music you listen to, I listen a lot to digital and female voice singers like Grimes or Bjork, ever listened to high-pitched/register singers? Ever noticed how you cannot understand the lyrics without those higher frequencies? mmm.. I have. I cannot understand much of anything.

I'm going to have to add a set to mine, or equalize higher frequencies. As soon as I increased the gain from 8khz on up to 20khz I could immediatley notice and identify vocals, but they were buried before.

Quote:

The reflection of the FH3 & XL's rear radiation adds tremendously to the dimension of soundstage - how well they fill the room will depend on its size, and the presence of furniture, etc
Agreed, they are a speaker which requires a room or a decent sized wall to work at all in bass frequencies.

Quote:

To date, I've heard at least 10 dozen different models of drivers in the FH3, and of those widely available, my choice so far would have to be the Alpair7.3. My absolute favorite is the MAOP version of that model - but those are rather rare - I'm told I have the only pair outside of Japan so far.


There is a very nice performing, compact footprint enclosure with a second, top mounted FR driver that might also be worth considering - the Castle Microtower - page 4 in the plan set http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/microTower-maps-290412.pdf

I've built 2 variations on this design - the most recent one with top angled forward at 5dg. Its compact footprint simply works better for "our" furniture arrangement.
mmm, food for thought.

chrisb 30th November 2014 02:01 AM

High register singers? - Alison Krauss, Loreena McKennitt, Patricia Barber, Dadawa, Wailin Jennys, Christina Aguilera, Sinead O'Connor, k.d. Lang, to name but a few, can on any given day percolate around the edge of crisply detailed and well forward and bubble over to "too close to the mike, are we now?" , and more in your face than I'd like. - almost got rude there, thinking about lap / face.


From my own experience with the FE126, several other Fostex in that size class, and most of the Alpairs, I'd opine that it's the 126's resonances in the 5-7 kHz range that could be more of an issue than their lack of extension beyond 12kHz. One needs to exercise caution in application of signal EQ in that range to avoid compression of higher order harmonics of vocal percussives that could fog the "air", as synthethic as much of that on commercial recordings might be.

I find the A7.3s far more refined, and resolving of low level, inner detail "ambience cues" than the 126. The FF series, OTOH, i find quite nice -most particularly the 85WK - when used within its limits (say above 200 or so) a stunningly good performer.

With regards to the FH3 specifically, unless severely constrained by power levels/ budget for upgrading amp(s), I'd personally take the A7.3 - maybe the new papers, over the FE126

Bare 30th November 2014 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinylkid58 (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3-post4132518.html#post4132518)
This is one of those things you have to experience for yourself. Most people that own big commercial speakers just won't believe what many of the 4-5" drivers are capable of. They think we're all full of it.:D

jeff

Perhaps not full of it But certainly a Fan Boy perspective inherent :-)
Their resolving power is Acceptable.. but leaves a Lot 'on the table' and their Bass/dynamics ? Erm.. Please this is real life.
These perform decently for a couple of hundred $ speakers.
But Dave Wilson et al won't be losing much sleep.

freax 30th November 2014 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisb (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3-post4137423.html#post4137423)
High register singers? - Alison Krauss, Loreena McKennitt, Patricia Barber, Dadawa, Wailin Jennys, Christina Aguilera, Sinead O'Connor, k.d. Lang, to name but a few, can on any given day percolate around the edge of crisply detailed and well forward and bubble over to "too close to the mike, are we now?" , and more in your face than I'd like. - almost got rude there, thinking about lap / face.

mmm it must be my digital transport then that is affecting the higher audio frequencies.

At the moment I'm using a Pioneer DV-344 (Which works excellent on vocals), but when I wrote that post I was using my onboard soundcard digital RCA output running ASIO (Yes the realtek chipset does have ASIO support.)

I'm using the Pioneer DV-344 now but as I said when I wrote that post I was limited by what the onboard soundcard digital output could do. Yesterday I pulled it apart and removed a nearby optical toslink diode from the same 5v bus as the spdif output goes to, I think that there is a level shifting transistor there which alters the level of the output coming from the transport to something which is spdif standardized.

I also done some other mods, check my website (when its up, will be placed in my sig) to see what I done.

If digital is so great then why do we have to spend hundreds of dollars on upgrading everything? I'm really sick of the cockyness surrounding digital, if it does this to the higher frequencies on a cheap assed digital soundcard output then what hope do the rest of the population have of ever achieving high fidelity. The motherboard is brand new by the way, with overkill amounts of voltage regulation, I would've thought that it would be quieter than this.

It was seriously screwing with the sound. Must be all of those nearby USB ports.

But yes having everything digital is more convenient.

Quote:

From my own experience with the FE126, several other Fostex in that size class, and most of the Alpairs, I'd opine that it's the 126's resonances in the 5-7 kHz range that could be more of an issue than their lack of extension beyond 12kHz. One needs to exercise caution in application of signal EQ in that range to avoid compression of higher order harmonics of vocal percussives that could fog the "air", as synthethic as much of that on commercial recordings might be.
Understood, avoid fog when fiddling with my equalizer.

Quote:

I find the A7.3s far more refined, and resolving of low level, inner detail "ambience cues" than the 126. The FF series, OTOH, i find quite nice -most particularly the 85WK - when used within its limits (say above 200 or so) a stunningly good performer.
mmm

Quote:

With regards to the FH3 specifically, unless severely constrained by power levels/ budget for upgrading amp(s), I'd personally take the A7.3 - maybe the new papers, over the FE126
I am severely constrained by my power budget more so than most people, everything is running off a 400AH 800W off-grid solar system. So none of that loading-down of LM317's that SY has stated and no vacuum tube amplifiers running 24/7, and no leaving things on to 'burn them in'. I don't believe in burn-in anyway.

My KT88 tube amp only gets turned on during comparisons, otherwise its the TDA2822M which gets a run for the money. (I've already reached the limits of what the TDA2822M can do too, so a new single chip project will be on the bench come next year.

Thanks for the advice again chrisb.

chrisb 30th November 2014 03:14 AM

Curious now about the situation

chrisb 30th November 2014 03:26 AM

Bare: should we be worried about whether the likes of Mr Wilson are even aware that something like DIY audio - the past time, not Website- even exists?

I think we all get it, you vacillate between enlightened disdain and mild bemusement at our splashing around in the kiddie pool here - but as no endangered species creatures have yet been documented as being harmed by our follies, why not just let us continue to revel in our ignorance?

Either too much, or not enough, Cabernet with this evening's repast - that can easily be remedied

ciao

freax 30th November 2014 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisb (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3-post4137463.html#post4137463)
Bare: should we be worried about whether the likes of Mr Wilson are even aware that something like DIY audio - the past time, not Website- even exists?

I think we all get it, you vacillate between enlightened disdain and mild bemusement at our splashing around in the kiddie pool here - but as no endangered species creatures have yet been documented as being harmed by our follies, why not just let us continue to revel in our ignorance?

Either too much, or not enough, Cabernet with this evening's repast - that can easily be remedied

ciao

Speaking of which..
In the Australian outback there is an insect called the Jewel beetle of which the male counterpart is attracted to the very large Female Jewel Beetles.. unfortunatley the discarded beer bottles from passing by trucks and walking aboriginies were causing them problems, see the colour of the beer bottles have just the right colour and texture to attract the males to this enormous female Jewel beetle. (Male Jewel Beetles think that the bigger the female the better.)

The females didn't get any action. So they faced extinction.

It wasn't until the bottles were redesigned that this behaviour stopped.

My point is this, its not what you see now but what you cannot see which will hump your beer bottle later

nbriles2000 8th January 2015 07:18 AM

Does anybody know if the CHN-70 or CHP-70 work in this enclosure without an alterations to the blueprints listed under "FrugelHorn Mk3 v10" on the p10hifi website?

planet10 8th January 2015 08:59 AM

They both work fine. I have a set here with CHN70

dave


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