I am trying to decide on an appropriate driver
for open baffle 4 inch, I will mate these with
a pair of alpha 15a in H frame,I am running
diy paradise Charlize amp,I will use this on
the FR drivers and I will use a plate amp on the
bass units,I am thinking it will need to be one of the fostex units.
I just can't decide which one to go with,I also looked at
CSS EL70 but I don't think I have enough power to drive those.
any help is greatly appreciated.
for open baffle 4 inch, I will mate these with
a pair of alpha 15a in H frame,I am running
diy paradise Charlize amp,I will use this on
the FR drivers and I will use a plate amp on the
bass units,I am thinking it will need to be one of the fostex units.
I just can't decide which one to go with,I also looked at
CSS EL70 but I don't think I have enough power to drive those.
any help is greatly appreciated.
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I'm not sure how helpful my post will be other than to say I like the EL70's I have in my 14.5l CB. For OB you'll need units with decent x-max which for their size the EL70's certainly have, correct? I haven't decided on what their permanent enclosure will be. I don't think OB's will be it due to there size. I'm curious, how large are your baffles?
The baffles will be 22 wide 40 high,I am just not sure if I have
enough power to push EL70's,I have about 15 watts a side
if you are fimiliar with Charlize amp,what are you using to drive yours.
EL70 Is a nice looking unit.
Scott
Your lack of power will push you towards a higher efficiency unit, but the Alpair 7, EL70, and CHR70 from Mark Audio are all really good 4". Martin King used the FE103 on his passive baffle, with bi-amping you are not as limited. FE127, 126 would work, as do FF85 and FE83 (they are 3").
Do also remember that in terms of dynamics, biamping increases the effective power of your amplifiers, and that people are happy using 3.5-10W with the more efficient Mark Audios FR. If your loudness levels are not too demanding your Charlize may well have sufficient oomf (edit: 15w should be more than adequate for any of these ... the MA are all 4 ohm, vrs the 8 ohm of the Fostex -- that is 3 dB of amp power right there)
dave
Do also remember that in terms of dynamics, biamping increases the effective power of your amplifiers, and that people are happy using 3.5-10W with the more efficient Mark Audios FR. If your loudness levels are not too demanding your Charlize may well have sufficient oomf (edit: 15w should be more than adequate for any of these ... the MA are all 4 ohm, vrs the 8 ohm of the Fostex -- that is 3 dB of amp power right there)
dave
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Tripath amps are usually happier with 4 ohms and optimized for such. Here is the chart from Yeo's site (i expect scanned from the TriPath tech notes)
About 12W into 4 and 6.5W into 8 before distortion starts its skyward reach... 15W & 8W at 0.1%, 17 & 9.5 at 1% and about 22 & 13 at the oft used 10% distortion levels.
I don't think you need to worry too much about power. As well the character of this amp is better suited to the EL70 than any of the Fostex.
dave
Dave
Man you are on top of it, so you are thinking EL70 would be
best fit of Mark Audio stuff is that right.
by the way I sent you a email earlier thinking you could help
so nevermind that email.
Scott,
Jordan Watts
If you can find a pair, the original Jordan Watts drivers would fit the bill. If not one of the new ones will suffice. They have astonishing detail and are full range units, but will improve with a sub.
The HIFI site
If you can find a pair, the original Jordan Watts drivers would fit the bill. If not one of the new ones will suffice. They have astonishing detail and are full range units, but will improve with a sub.
The HIFI site
I am trying to decide on an appropriate driver
for open baffle 4 inch, I will mate these with
a pair of alpha 15a in H frame
I'm not so sure of H-Frames used up into the vocal range mated with a full range driver on OB is a good thing. The H-Frame used as bass support in the under 80 hz region is very nice.. I would suggest using the Alpha on a flat baffle with sides behind rather than boxing in around the front wave of the driver as done in an H-Frame.. So a U frame of sorts I would guess.. In the H-Frame the driver is basically recessed with the depth of the box sides walling off the front wave of the driver, which to me smears the sound at the higher x-over levels...
I used the Goldwood 18'' driver in a flat open baffle as a test while awaiting to start on my H-Frames ,and it sounded nice up into the 100hz + region, however installed into the H-Frames with the 7'' or so of depth wrapped around the front of the driver, the sound was quite colored up over 80-90hz and very nice as a sub at 70 or so hz.. Very clean and natural bass tone with the x-over kept low..
I know that the H-Frame Jordon combo has a following and I'm not trying to take away from that, just relating the sound to me in my situation with a half OB half BIB set up using the 4'' driver pure and unfiltered in the BIB cabs ..
Next will be the Goldwoods on a flat u frame type baffle and the little Fostex drivers filtered , but that's a long ways off..
Good luck and enjoy.. The Goldwoods are also a good deal if you want to move up a bit in size or can etc.. BTW I love my 18'' Goldwood sub duty H-Frames even as placed near the wall.. The opening to the hall is`what lets me cheat the more usual placement and sounds really nice in here too
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sorry to all if the pic went too big, it was small then??? ''Shrug''
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DaveCan:
looks great - a big improvement over the BIB's, or just an experiment?
does the floor really droop that much?
dave w p:
have you experienced any of the latest Mark Audio drivers? They are in at least the same league as the current Jordans, and certainly surpass the original JW modules of 40 or so yrs ago;
oh dear, I'm gonna pay for that
looks great - a big improvement over the BIB's, or just an experiment?
does the floor really droop that much?
dave w p:
have you experienced any of the latest Mark Audio drivers? They are in at least the same league as the current Jordans, and certainly surpass the original JW modules of 40 or so yrs ago;
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
oh dear, I'm gonna pay for that
Hey Chris, Lol yep the floors really do droop that much in places, thank goodness for cheap rubber dollar store door stops lol.. A man built the place all by hand after returning from WWII, you should see the spacing of the floor joists, no way we could get away with that nowadays... The plan is to take the house down and build, or just put a mini home on the property etc, but for now it's my nest and I'm making the best of it
The 108ez drivers are still in BIB's unfiltered, and I cut off that extra bit they had to fire down at the floors, so they are now firing up towards the ceiling with the correct dims.. I also have rubber door stoppers under them to angle them down towards the listening position and added standard spruce 2''x6'' lumber to the sides of the BIB cabs, things are sounding pretty good for sure.. The H-Frame Goldwoods have provided a really nice foundation and blend very well even though the placement I have is not the best..
Very good imaging and sound stage with the vocalists seemingly standing or sitting at proper height in that alcove between the cabs, most music seems to sit between the cabs making them all but disappear other than visually, pretty cool and mesmerizing at times..
Later will be a full OB experiment using the shape of the Carver Amazings as the starting point, although scaled somewhat etc..
There's a bunch more pics at the end of this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/167291-fostex-fe108-esigma-ob-s-6.html
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http://www.zillaaudio.com/Speakers-tweeter-woofer-bib.htm
Dave, i see what you did there and think a BIB along with bass support like H or U frames really enhances the bottom octaves even if it is only from 80hz down. I also see the 'wings' you put onto your BIBs and found this filled out the mids somewhat but removed mine eventually bc they took away from the look of the speaker and without the wings things were fine anyway... just not as 'solid' in the mids. But BIBs plus H-frames, for me anyway, is about as good as it gets. Too bad it's an awkward setup.
That MA driver with the squared off frame looks mighty cool. Feel free to elaborate.
Godzilla
Dave, i see what you did there and think a BIB along with bass support like H or U frames really enhances the bottom octaves even if it is only from 80hz down. I also see the 'wings' you put onto your BIBs and found this filled out the mids somewhat but removed mine eventually bc they took away from the look of the speaker and without the wings things were fine anyway... just not as 'solid' in the mids. But BIBs plus H-frames, for me anyway, is about as good as it gets. Too bad it's an awkward setup.
That MA driver with the squared off frame looks mighty cool. Feel free to elaborate.
Godzilla
Totally agree Jeff, I'm really digging the sound and the spruce 2''x6'' side wings really kicked things up a notch compared to before..
Sometimes I just get blown away by the small outlay I have into my drivers and cab material, for the amount of enjoyment given back in return.. Every time I go into a big box store and hear the sound of most of the offerings, I just get thankful that I found DIY Audio and came across all the good people here that help you along and give their advice and project advice...
I think I have about about $400+/- in drivers and material total, and I wouldn't trade for some stuff I hear well above that at some of these audio stores.. Looking forward to move up from here at some point too, so all is fun and good and my ears are happy
OP, best 4'' driver for OB use? Not sure I can really help with that other than to say the Fostex fe108ez sounds pretty nice, but certainly there are many others to choose from for sure, and some new offerings that are getting some good press etc.. For me the 108 sounds rather good, a bit more sensitivity would be nice but eventually I'm changing that by trying a different larger driver at some point.. Never heard the 108 in pure OB mine are still in cabs, so take that into consideration with my comments..
Happy Listening
Sometimes I just get blown away by the small outlay I have into my drivers and cab material, for the amount of enjoyment given back in return.. Every time I go into a big box store and hear the sound of most of the offerings, I just get thankful that I found DIY Audio and came across all the good people here that help you along and give their advice and project advice...
I think I have about about $400+/- in drivers and material total, and I wouldn't trade for some stuff I hear well above that at some of these audio stores.. Looking forward to move up from here at some point too, so all is fun and good and my ears are happy
OP, best 4'' driver for OB use? Not sure I can really help with that other than to say the Fostex fe108ez sounds pretty nice, but certainly there are many others to choose from for sure, and some new offerings that are getting some good press etc.. For me the 108 sounds rather good, a bit more sensitivity would be nice but eventually I'm changing that by trying a different larger driver at some point.. Never heard the 108 in pure OB mine are still in cabs, so take that into consideration with my comments..
Happy Listening
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Dave: LOL about the house: mine was built in the early 70's - according to the name on Electrial inspection panel by/for a gentleman of "oriental" descent. How some of these places ever passed inspection is beyond me.
Well, actually I think I do know that worked ....
During a recent kitchen reno, we took an interior none load bearing wall out and found the floor in a former bedroom cupped/crowned in two different directions by over 1/2" each in the less than 6ft. Shimming the cabinet kick bases for level is pretty straightforward, but coping the prefinished wood basetrim was a bit more fun - I'm glad I only used 1/4" material.
Anyway, back to the system in your picture - I clearly jumped to a conclusion / failed to research further and didn't realize those were still the BIB's.
Glad you're happy with things for now that is. There's always a "but wait, there's more"
Well, actually I think I do know that worked ....
During a recent kitchen reno, we took an interior none load bearing wall out and found the floor in a former bedroom cupped/crowned in two different directions by over 1/2" each in the less than 6ft. Shimming the cabinet kick bases for level is pretty straightforward, but coping the prefinished wood basetrim was a bit more fun - I'm glad I only used 1/4" material.
Anyway, back to the system in your picture - I clearly jumped to a conclusion / failed to research further and didn't realize those were still the BIB's.
Glad you're happy with things for now that is. There's always a "but wait, there's more"
>>> Every time I go into a big box store and hear the sound of most of the offerings, I just get thankful that I found DIY Audio and came across all the good people here that help you along and give their advice and project advice...
I feel the same way. Btw, I puttied up and sanded down my H-frames last weekend and they are waiting for a coat of primer. I want to use them as a platform to mount the various drivers i have from TB, Fostex, Pioneer, the Betsy, a few oddball Jamo buyouts from PE, a brand new pair of Radio Shack 1354s i've been saving, 1197s, the PE NSB and 69 cent wonders... If only i did not pack a bag this evening and leave my wife and kids to sleep at my moms for the first time in 16 years... all this stuff is in the basement!
I feel the same way. Btw, I puttied up and sanded down my H-frames last weekend and they are waiting for a coat of primer. I want to use them as a platform to mount the various drivers i have from TB, Fostex, Pioneer, the Betsy, a few oddball Jamo buyouts from PE, a brand new pair of Radio Shack 1354s i've been saving, 1197s, the PE NSB and 69 cent wonders... If only i did not pack a bag this evening and leave my wife and kids to sleep at my moms for the first time in 16 years... all this stuff is in the basement!
I haven't read all of this, but I will say that H baffles, are, as some one else pointed out, not happy above a certain frequency, dictated by their dimensions. The larger the H baffle the lower they should be used. I believe the effect is comb filtering of the response above a certain frequency. I think this occurred at 150hz in the orion and LW chose to cross at something like 120hz.
A small 4" wont be happy going that low. Neither will a 4" be happy on a baffle that wide.
If using the 15" eminence you should be looking at xovering it at 80hz or so, to an 8" driver on a baffle say 9" wide that crosses to the 4" at around 400hz.
Of course that's in an ideal world and I bet the 15" in a H baffle xovered to the 4" might sound pretty decent. It's just not optimal.
A small 4" wont be happy going that low. Neither will a 4" be happy on a baffle that wide.
If using the 15" eminence you should be looking at xovering it at 80hz or so, to an 8" driver on a baffle say 9" wide that crosses to the 4" at around 400hz.
Of course that's in an ideal world and I bet the 15" in a H baffle xovered to the 4" might sound pretty decent. It's just not optimal.
Chris, It's still amazing what will get passed even now with all the new code's etc.. That last few years in Vic with all the booming construction, I've personally witnessed quite a few houses get passed without any blown in insulation in the attic, some quirky electrical, and I can't even remember how many places got passed with the outside water taps connected to the hot water tank supply, that would then pour out 100% hot water when turned on.. Also there was one place the carpenter never screwed or nailed a skylight on, and the owners went away for a long weekend only to return to find that the skylight had blown off in a windstorm, and it had been raining inside their house for three days right over top of a beautiful and very expensive oak stairwell..
Your woodworking skills are many many steps above mine, but I dare say you would go batty trying to fit and cope things around the place I'm in now lol...
Jeff, that doesn't sound so good on the home front, packed a bag and left to stay at your moms??? Hope all is okay?
5th, I'm on the same page about the H-Frame, works well as sub duty but up into the higher x-over points not so swell...
Your woodworking skills are many many steps above mine, but I dare say you would go batty trying to fit and cope things around the place I'm in now lol...
Jeff, that doesn't sound so good on the home front, packed a bag and left to stay at your moms??? Hope all is okay?
5th, I'm on the same page about the H-Frame, works well as sub duty but up into the higher x-over points not so swell...
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Hi, listening to the Fostex FE108 E Sigma and comparing it to SEAS F8 in an OB (u-shaped, that is), I like the musicality of both but the SEAS has a lot more detail, seems to handle orchestral music better, whereas with vocal/jazz both were fine.
So I guess it depends on the type of music you are listening to, as well as budget (the SEAS is 7x the price of the Fostex, at least in Germany ;-( )
have fun
So I guess it depends on the type of music you are listening to, as well as budget (the SEAS is 7x the price of the Fostex, at least in Germany ;-( )
have fun
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