Exciting that there will be a new version of the Frugel-Horn! Sounds very promising. Of course Murphys law dictates that the next best design is coming up just after you finish the old design 
Listening to my new Frugel level 0 I think that the Croatian idea of adding a sub is good, because the Fostex Fe126eN I am using in the Frugel horn really are at the limit of their excursion at low frequencies and moderately loud volumes, and a 50 Hz test tone has audible distortion. I am wondering whether a sub-woofer design suitable for the Frugel could be developed as part of the Frugel horn site. Or could you recommend an existing design (possibly similar to the Ring Audio)?
Thanks again for all the great work guys, it is a great start for a newbie diy audiophile.
Listening to my new Frugel level 0 I think that the Croatian idea of adding a sub is good, because the Fostex Fe126eN I am using in the Frugel horn really are at the limit of their excursion at low frequencies and moderately loud volumes, and a 50 Hz test tone has audible distortion. I am wondering whether a sub-woofer design suitable for the Frugel could be developed as part of the Frugel horn site. Or could you recommend an existing design (possibly similar to the Ring Audio)?
Thanks again for all the great work guys, it is a great start for a newbie diy audiophile.
New FH it may be, but it's got a different set of priorities to the original; simplicity is the dominant factor this time around, largely to encourage people new to the hobby, and also to make cost-effective flat packs easier for those who would like to produce them.
Adding a sub. isn't a Croatian idea. The FH requires support in the LF if you play material with an emphasis on this; I suspect it wasn't really mentioned simply because everyone thought it self-evident. The new model certainly will, because it's tuned higher to provide a smoother gain BW.
Whatever you like in the LF. Me, I prefer twin (or four) subs. / woofers to a single, but YMMV as ever. Dave might be thinking of partnering woofers.
Adding a sub. isn't a Croatian idea. The FH requires support in the LF if you play material with an emphasis on this; I suspect it wasn't really mentioned simply because everyone thought it self-evident. The new model certainly will, because it's tuned higher to provide a smoother gain BW.
Whatever you like in the LF. Me, I prefer twin (or four) subs. / woofers to a single, but YMMV as ever. Dave might be thinking of partnering woofers.
Exciting that there will be a new version of the Frugel-Horn! Sounds very promising. Of course Murphys law dictates that the next best design is coming up just after you finish the old design
Listening to my new Frugel level 0 I think that the Croatian idea of adding a sub is good, because the Fostex Fe126eN I am using in the Frugel horn really are at the limit of their excursion at low frequencies and moderately loud volumes, and a 50 Hz test tone has audible distortion. I am wondering whether a sub-woofer design suitable for the Frugel could be developed as part of the Frugel horn site. Or could you recommend an existing design (possibly similar to the Ring Audio)?
Thanks again for all the great work guys, it is a great start for a newbie diy audiophile.
Frankly, I think there are more than enough existing powered woofer designs extant on both the Planet10 and other commercial sites, as well as in circulation in the DIY community at large.
In my opinion, as the design goals of this latest Frugel Horn include compact size, choice of drivers, reduced complexity of build and choice of aesthetics, the selection & implementation of "sub(s)" is very system dependent.
If there was a single bespoke design to accompany the new FH, it would most likely be to include drivers in the separate triangular deflector, and in keeping with the concept of user flexibility, driven by outboard (stereo) amp and XO/ EQ of your choice. Currently the targeted dimensions would permit up to approx 8" woofer per deflector.
We have quite successfully incorporated bass drives in column stands for "monitor" size designs such as the Fonkens, and indeed the Tysen design evolved from such a musing.
edit: to expand on Scott's musing above, we've got a couple of drivers and alternative methods in mind for our own experimentation with "Stealth" subs, but as noted a couple of paragraphs above, any design offered to the DIY community needs to allow for a wide range of available drivers.
Last edited:
Guys,
The idea of the stealth woofer came up even before the original documents were released.
There is at least 1 picture of someone turning their rectangular subs 45 degrees and using them as FH deflectors.
Attached is an early (vented) idea. Note that the depth is increased to get the cross-section up.
With the discovery of how good the SDX7 sealed was... useful plans for a FH Mk1 Stealth Woofer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/138884-my-frugel-horn-build-13.html#post1779987
The taller FH3 means more volume to work with. So more woofer choices.
dave
The idea of the stealth woofer came up even before the original documents were released.
There is at least 1 picture of someone turning their rectangular subs 45 degrees and using them as FH deflectors.
Attached is an early (vented) idea. Note that the depth is increased to get the cross-section up.
With the discovery of how good the SDX7 sealed was... useful plans for a FH Mk1 Stealth Woofer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/138884-my-frugel-horn-build-13.html#post1779987
The taller FH3 means more volume to work with. So more woofer choices.
dave
Attachments
FH mk III desing & "driver rolling"
I have been looking at building the BK10 enclosure which according to the documentation can take different drivers. One thing like about it is that the driver chamber has some space below the driver which means that this chamber can be easily reduced in size by placing some plastic bags with sand in it.
Another item which I am concerned about is that the FH family is rather narrow and can tip over easily. Perhaps something like the Klan + Ton CT 164 may be suggesting to some new path?
I greatly appreciate all the efforts of those involved in the design and testing
(even I sometimes disagree with some aspects but life would be boring if we all had identical opinions). One thing is certain however: a single individual would not obtain the same superior results results working all by him(her)self.
Kudos to all!
AM
I have been looking at building the BK10 enclosure which according to the documentation can take different drivers. One thing like about it is that the driver chamber has some space below the driver which means that this chamber can be easily reduced in size by placing some plastic bags with sand in it.
Another item which I am concerned about is that the FH family is rather narrow and can tip over easily. Perhaps something like the Klan + Ton CT 164 may be suggesting to some new path?
I greatly appreciate all the efforts of those involved in the design and testing
(even I sometimes disagree with some aspects but life would be boring if we all had identical opinions). One thing is certain however: a single individual would not obtain the same superior results results working all by him(her)self.
Kudos to all!
AM
Something perhaps for the future. Thing is, Ron's A126 (similar in size terms to the CT164) is in place, & there's no point in having too much overlap. The FH is supposed to be compact, that's it's fundamental raison d'etre, so making it significantly wider / larger is out. A plinth can be added for additional stability of course. This time round, after the compact-thing, it's a case of heavily simplifiying, and making the end-box flexible enough to accept a wide range of drivers.
Last edited:
Keep up the good work
FWIW:
Making it more compact means more internal bends which imho cannot be good for the sound quality (some horn addicts want only a straight horn or a horn with a single bend).
More internal bends create more work in the construction too....
Ron's A126 vents to the sides so it can be positioned against the wall. I've seen somewhere a horn that has this opening on one side (besides the PAWO) and this would give additional flexibility of positioning: the speakers can either vent to each other or venting to the outside walls giving less or more bass boost. I may build a clone of the A126 and modify it to achieve this purpose. Similarly I may enlarge the back chamber like Dave did in his initial A126 version and have a number of small baffles behind ( similar to the Fostex factory designs in the mouths) and it which will change reflections and allow bags of sand to be placed there making the chamber smaller (making it easier to rolling speakers).
One thing I have often thought about is making a TL and instead of damping make a series of baffles glued to the sides (similar to the room enhancing baffles) which then would have the purpose of slowing down anything about mid bass. (cars have exhaust silencers that you can look straight through)
Similarly I think that the first piece of hron (immediately coming from the driver) is the most important piece of determining the "tonal" signature, when after a certain distance there is a number of bends then those will act as a filter to choke of the higher frequencies. (just thinking out loud here, I may be far off the mark).
Keep up the good work
regards, AM
FWIW:
Making it more compact means more internal bends which imho cannot be good for the sound quality (some horn addicts want only a straight horn or a horn with a single bend).
More internal bends create more work in the construction too....
Ron's A126 vents to the sides so it can be positioned against the wall. I've seen somewhere a horn that has this opening on one side (besides the PAWO) and this would give additional flexibility of positioning: the speakers can either vent to each other or venting to the outside walls giving less or more bass boost. I may build a clone of the A126 and modify it to achieve this purpose. Similarly I may enlarge the back chamber like Dave did in his initial A126 version and have a number of small baffles behind ( similar to the Fostex factory designs in the mouths) and it which will change reflections and allow bags of sand to be placed there making the chamber smaller (making it easier to rolling speakers).
One thing I have often thought about is making a TL and instead of damping make a series of baffles glued to the sides (similar to the room enhancing baffles) which then would have the purpose of slowing down anything about mid bass. (cars have exhaust silencers that you can look straight through)
Similarly I think that the first piece of hron (immediately coming from the driver) is the most important piece of determining the "tonal" signature, when after a certain distance there is a number of bends then those will act as a filter to choke of the higher frequencies. (just thinking out loud here, I may be far off the mark).
Keep up the good work
regards, AM
You are going to be surprised.
For a front loaded horn where you need to get max HF bandwidth straigh is important. In a rear loaded horn, where you want to restrict HF from getting out the mouth, each bend, if used carefully, can be a LP filter, aiding the design.
The ones i'm listening to right now vent out the back.
Big Fun horn?
dave
Dave beat me to it.
FH3 as planned is actually fractionally larger than the current box, but as the FH needs to be compact, it logically cannot grow any further. Re complexity, reducing this was a primary design goal. As Dave says, it might be a bit of a surprise.
Actually it doesn't. It vents to the rear, the deflector being to smooth the expansion out onto the rear boundary, where it is then reflected forward.
Possibly the BFH, AFH, here: Single Driver Website or the defunct side-firing horn Terry Cain was going to market before his tragic death.
Whether side-firing gives additional flexibility or not is more of a subjective issue. For e.g., Terry's (designed by Gordan Rankin IIRC) was a corner-horn, it just happened to be a wide-baffle, with the terminus as the side rather than the rear. Side-firing is nothing new; Lynn Olson's Ariel, my friend Ed's Vofo and many others use it; I've done several myself too, plus side-firing drivers in several of my MA & CSS designs. It can be good, but it's not a panacea, and can in fact make placement harder in many situations, especially in smaller spaces. No free lunches in audio.
FH3 as planned is actually fractionally larger than the current box, but as the FH needs to be compact, it logically cannot grow any further. Re complexity, reducing this was a primary design goal. As Dave says, it might be a bit of a surprise.
Actually it doesn't. It vents to the rear, the deflector being to smooth the expansion out onto the rear boundary, where it is then reflected forward.
Possibly the BFH, AFH, here: Single Driver Website or the defunct side-firing horn Terry Cain was going to market before his tragic death.
Whether side-firing gives additional flexibility or not is more of a subjective issue. For e.g., Terry's (designed by Gordan Rankin IIRC) was a corner-horn, it just happened to be a wide-baffle, with the terminus as the side rather than the rear. Side-firing is nothing new; Lynn Olson's Ariel, my friend Ed's Vofo and many others use it; I've done several myself too, plus side-firing drivers in several of my MA & CSS designs. It can be good, but it's not a panacea, and can in fact make placement harder in many situations, especially in smaller spaces. No free lunches in audio.
Last edited:
Yes, that's the one I've seen. Thanks for the replies and look forward to see the final results. Will be holding off building anything in the meantime.
AM
On another note: I've read that you still have your BK101 in your workshop. I wonder what's that like since at one stage I had some notions of building the later version (BK10). (I've read someone stating that he retired his Spendor 2/3 after getting the BK101).
Do you mind veting an opinion about the BK101 (and how you think the BK10 will relate to it)? Many thanks in advance, AM.
I downloaded Ron's plans from the frugal horn website and on page 8 (immediately after the photograph) is a version that has side exits. My mistake (mis remembering) - all the others have a rear exit.
AM
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.