I'm back!
After weeks of research, reading thread after thread on this site, familiarizing myself with WinISD, going through a few different iterations of design, accumulating tools, etc etc.. I've finally completed my first set of speakers, and I love them!
I felt like experimenting, so I went out on a limb and picked up a pair of CHR-70s for my first shot. Everyone seems to highly regard Mark's Alpair series, so I was really curious how a "cheap" speaker from the same designer would perform. Since I'm playing around with getting a lot of great sound out of as little money as possible, the $70 a pair price range seemed pretty sweet.
These first boxes are fairly large. they're not the "mathematically optimal" size for deepest flat bass extension, but they're not much of a compromise. For my first boxes I wanted to see how the speakers would sound in an optimal box designed so the speakers could stand alone. Next I'm going to play with a much smaller enclosure and see how small I can go before they really loose their oomph.
I'd like to experiment with some really small boxes, and then use one of the Adire Extremis 6.8s that I have laying around to do a small subwoofer, and make a matched 5.1 system.
I'm mainly comparing these speakers to my roommate's B&W 602s, which are fairly badass speakers and cost $600 a pair. With current testing so far, I will say that the CHR-70s aren't quite as clean, but they're really not that far off. I need to get both sets of speakers in the same room running off the same amp to get a real objective test, but so far I'm VERY happy with the sound these put out. Considering these speakers cost less than $100 for the pair, I'd say I'm doing pretty well
After weeks of research, reading thread after thread on this site, familiarizing myself with WinISD, going through a few different iterations of design, accumulating tools, etc etc.. I've finally completed my first set of speakers, and I love them!
I felt like experimenting, so I went out on a limb and picked up a pair of CHR-70s for my first shot. Everyone seems to highly regard Mark's Alpair series, so I was really curious how a "cheap" speaker from the same designer would perform. Since I'm playing around with getting a lot of great sound out of as little money as possible, the $70 a pair price range seemed pretty sweet.
These first boxes are fairly large. they're not the "mathematically optimal" size for deepest flat bass extension, but they're not much of a compromise. For my first boxes I wanted to see how the speakers would sound in an optimal box designed so the speakers could stand alone. Next I'm going to play with a much smaller enclosure and see how small I can go before they really loose their oomph.
I'd like to experiment with some really small boxes, and then use one of the Adire Extremis 6.8s that I have laying around to do a small subwoofer, and make a matched 5.1 system.
I'm mainly comparing these speakers to my roommate's B&W 602s, which are fairly badass speakers and cost $600 a pair. With current testing so far, I will say that the CHR-70s aren't quite as clean, but they're really not that far off. I need to get both sets of speakers in the same room running off the same amp to get a real objective test, but so far I'm VERY happy with the sound these put out. Considering these speakers cost less than $100 for the pair, I'd say I'm doing pretty well
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What really impressed me was their low end performance. They're no subwoofers, but in these boxes they sound decent for most anything short of whacky electronic ultra sub-bass. In the pictures I'm listening to some Yo Yo Ma (can't you tell?) and the deepest cello notes come through nice and strong
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If you guys don't mind I'll just babble here a bit about the construction or whatnot, as I'm a noob and all the basics are still interesting to me, plus, anyone else looking to build a cheap speaker with these fellas might be interested.
The box ended up being about 12.4 Liters, tuned to 45hz, with a 1 1/2" diameter port at 4 1/4" long.
I actually just used a bit of pillow stuffing along the back of the speaker for damping. I may try adding some more to see what effect it has on the sound at a later time.
Attached is the WinISD plot of the box as built!
Random anecdote: I was originally going to build the boxes at the "optimal" size as determined by WinISD's "Chebyshev" alignment, for deepest and flattest bass response. This meant that the 4.24" ports that I ordered were plenty long and, in fact, I'd have to cut them shorter to make them work. I then decided that the boxes were simply TOO big and I wouldn't be able to put them anywhere, and even though I'm experimenting it'd be nice to have something halfway usable, so I shrunk them down exactly as much as I could without having to order or build a longer port, so in a way, the size of the box was determined by the length of the port that I happened to have sitting around
The box ended up being about 12.4 Liters, tuned to 45hz, with a 1 1/2" diameter port at 4 1/4" long.
I actually just used a bit of pillow stuffing along the back of the speaker for damping. I may try adding some more to see what effect it has on the sound at a later time.
Attached is the WinISD plot of the box as built!
Random anecdote: I was originally going to build the boxes at the "optimal" size as determined by WinISD's "Chebyshev" alignment, for deepest and flattest bass response. This meant that the 4.24" ports that I ordered were plenty long and, in fact, I'd have to cut them shorter to make them work. I then decided that the boxes were simply TOO big and I wouldn't be able to put them anywhere, and even though I'm experimenting it'd be nice to have something halfway usable, so I shrunk them down exactly as much as I could without having to order or build a longer port, so in a way, the size of the box was determined by the length of the port that I happened to have sitting around
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I think anyone who purchases these drivers with the knowledge that you are not going to get EJ sound out of a $70USD/PR driver you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well these little guys perform. I currently have a F.A.S.T. project going that contains two CHR-70's wired in series per side crossed at 200Hz to 4 Silverflute 5.5" midbasses in a separate cabinet wired in series / parallel and I'm telling you these little guys shine in OB or in a boxed design. I purchased these as a experimental replacement for an FF85K in OB because to be honest even though it does the top end superb, the mids so sweet the lower mids, well this little driver just couldn't do it for me and sounded like it was screaming for a box. So I decided to try out the CHR-70's and with two a side allowing better power handling the CHR-70's really do everything just as good as the FF85K up until 18k then that's where the FF85K excels (not that I can hear much higher than that), but the CHR-70 kills and I do mean demolishes the FF85K in the lower midbass registers. I can get good in room response to 50Hz with the two in a 12Ltr ported box tuned to 60Hz. I’d say if your looking for really high output standalone these won’t fit the bill, unless you crossed above 200hz then your looking at 110-115db peaks in room with these little buggers in pairs.
All in all I’m happy, and it’s nice to see someone else likes them as much as I do, Peace and happy listening.
Speaks
All in all I’m happy, and it’s nice to see someone else likes them as much as I do, Peace and happy listening.
Speaks
Thanks! And no, no passive filters yet. My audio source is a computer, though, so I can use Winamp's built in EQ to shape the sound, and I've been experimenting with with that to tame the high end a little. It doesn't take much. In a lot of music I actually almost hate toning it down, just because the high end actually sounds quite pleasant!
That said, I've not actually objectively looked at the baffle step problem, I'll definitely have to do that today
Overall fantastic, I'd say. Forgive me as I am not exactly the worlds most seasoned listener, but I do think I have a taste for decent sound. My high-end listening experience is largely based around Grado SR-80s and the B&W 602s that I mentioned above. In that context, I really love listening to these speakers and I find myself digging for music just as an excuse to listen to them.
The midrange is just lovely, and the highs are suprisingly unoffensive. There are definitely a few frequencies that the speaker plays really strongly relative to others, but it doesn't sound distorted, just... louder at some high-mid frequencies. This could, of course, be due to the whole Baffle Step thing, so I'm going to have to look into that
My current dillema is that now I'm just thinking how these could make an awesome but inexpensive 5.1 system.. but they're 4ohm, and none of the less expensive surround receivers that I can find will deal well with 4ohm loads! I've been wanting to build my own amps, but then there aren't really many options for inexpensive standalone surround decoders. What is a guy to do?
There's that creative DDTS-100 (scratch that, seems to be no longer available), I could get a cheap receiver that had RCA pre-outs (also rare, it seems, unless someone can recommend one?) or I could just wire resistors in with the speakers to bring their impedance up to 6 or 8 ohms. Opinions?
There's that creative DDTS-100 (scratch that, seems to be no longer available), I could get a cheap receiver that had RCA pre-outs (also rare, it seems, unless someone can recommend one?) or I could just wire resistors in with the speakers to bring their impedance up to 6 or 8 ohms. Opinions?
speakrsrfun said:
We have 1 pr of CHR in boxes at Chris', another pr on the break-in bench. I'm over to hear the boxed one's this WE -- i'll be sure to take a pair of uFonken (w FF85KeN). I fully expect the bigger driver to be way better in the midbass (40-80 Hz) since FF85 just doesn't go that low, probably better in the upper bass (80-160 Hz) as well.
dave
Don't get me wrong Dave I love my FF85's but these (CHR-70) only slightly better and have an edge over the FF85 due to total extention, since most can't hear past 18K anyhow the CHR-70 just seems to fit the bill better. One thing I must make a point of though is that the rated spec on these is a sensitivity of 85dB/W-1m, well I'm thinking more like 83dB/W-1m. They just need some amp juice to get them really humming. Overall Dave I doubt you'll be disapointed, as long as you remind yourself that this is a $80/pr driver and not a Jordan you'll be OK. The CHR-70's really tend to excell in reprocucing woodwinds and brass very realistically, female voice is stunning and to be quite truthfull even piano sounds rather lively and realistic. Acoustic guitar sounds very real and when mounted in OB sounds like the player is in the room with you. I'll let you judge but seeing as I've used a few Fostex myself these come as close to the FF85 in midrange and High frequency sweetness as I've heard yet in any fullrange, but they just do from 70-200Hz much betterthan the FF85.
Anyway Sorry to Hijack the thread but these drivers need a bit of attention folks....
Peace and happy listening
Speaks
Anyway Sorry to Hijack the thread but these drivers need a bit of attention folks....
Peace and happy listening
Speaks
planet10 said:
speakrsrfun said:
Yours are stock? A fully modded set landed in the TO area just in the last week. Don't know if you'd like to seek them out. It is a really fantastic driver 150 Hz up (and for low level near field we have boxes that can get below 100). I'd be VERY pleased if the srock CHR can get close to the modded FF85, my goal is to see how much better i can get them after throwing some of my tricks at them -- if i can improve them half as much as i can a Fostex, watch out.
With a sensitivity of 85 dB and an impedance of 4 ohm, efficiency is more like 82 dB, about 3 dB less than the FF85.
I didn't like the Jordan JX92 i had, not at all. But they were the 1st production units from the Swedes... IMHO i have my doubts that they are to the same level as those that came before, AFAIC with 5 years of Ted Jordan passing his knowledge on to Mark Audio, they are the real successors to the Jordan legacy, The Mark Audio built J6T i'm listening to in my office at the moment don't have any of the issues i had with the JX92.
dave
Once again, the JX92 has been produced by Typhany for years and afaik as of last year stock was still from the original production.
It's daft to suggest that Mark is a direct successor to Ted's units given that Ted is still working with EAD. Mark's units have taken things in a new direction, having worked to develop his units before EAD took on Jordan. I haven't heard them so can't comment how they compare. I do know the HF of the JX92 is generally well regarded if the driver is used correctly - toed in, used with BSC if required.
I banged on for ages about my 48" MLTLs not requiring BSC until I got them measured and added in the correct BSC. Terrific improvement. Humble pie eaten, respect for driver increased.
It's daft to suggest that Mark is a direct successor to Ted's units given that Ted is still working with EAD. Mark's units have taken things in a new direction, having worked to develop his units before EAD took on Jordan. I haven't heard them so can't comment how they compare. I do know the HF of the JX92 is generally well regarded if the driver is used correctly - toed in, used with BSC if required.
I banged on for ages about my 48" MLTLs not requiring BSC until I got them measured and added in the correct BSC. Terrific improvement. Humble pie eaten, respect for driver increased.
Colin, Dave is entitled to his opinion. Saying opinions are "daft" isn't the right way of going about disagreeing with comments. We all know you're ultra loyal to Jordan but now there's an alternative - at long last! I'm happy and bet others are going to buy Markaudio because Jordan is expensive. I'm enjoying the Alp 6's I bought last year. I'm very happy with them.
I've ordered CHR's to try out as well. Looking at the comments so far, I'm betting the CHRs will be gems at a bargain price.
I've ordered CHR's to try out as well. Looking at the comments so far, I'm betting the CHRs will be gems at a bargain price.
Colin said:
I didn't say direct as that would be EAD. It is very true that Ted spent 5 years passing on his knowlwdge to Mark before quickly switching gears & selling to the swedes -- even if Ted is working closely with the swedes he has not had time to pass things to the same level.
As well Mark is a VERY competent engineer in his own right, and brings alot to the party. Without Ted there insisting that things be done his way (an assumption on my part), he is able to bring a different perspective & innovation to the product.
At this point i'm just a bystander, as i've only heard Jordan J6T (built by Mark) & the JX92 (which i found very dissapointing -- can someone with group buy drivers, check to see if they say made in China or Made in Denmark?)
dave
Hi everyone
Answering Dave's question regarding Manufacture of speakers, China is now the main source of the world's supply of drivers. Tymphany-Denmark moved their manufacturing to Guangzhou in Dongguan province early in 2007. The JX92 production moved along with everything else they used to make in Europe.
I recently talked about the current state of Chinese production on thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1735532#post1735532
Thx
Mark
Answering Dave's question regarding Manufacture of speakers, China is now the main source of the world's supply of drivers. Tymphany-Denmark moved their manufacturing to Guangzhou in Dongguan province early in 2007. The JX92 production moved along with everything else they used to make in Europe.
I recently talked about the current state of Chinese production on thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1735532#post1735532
Thx
Mark
Hi Everyone
I'm receiving lots of emails asking me for plan builds for the CHR-70, especially simple BR that's a handy size. Here's a plan for a 6.4 litre BR.
I've suggested using a 40-mm port and a filter to get started but feel free to experiment, each to their own tastes.
Thx
Mark.
I'm receiving lots of emails asking me for plan builds for the CHR-70, especially simple BR that's a handy size. Here's a plan for a 6.4 litre BR.
I've suggested using a 40-mm port and a filter to get started but feel free to experiment, each to their own tastes.
Thx
Mark.
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markaudio said:
emphasis mine - wiser words never spoke, Mark
Even bone stock with no break-in the CHR70's in a little sealed box are quite musical - the only "complaint" I might have is the sensitivity / efficiency issue. After several years of various Fostex single drivers designs that are very enjoyable with on 4 or 5 watts of SET power, I had to dig out the ole 25 watt Jolida to get these to their happy place.
I finally got a chance to hear those CHR70 at Chris' today. Stock they are just fine -- our goal is to see how much better they can be made (and have a 2nd pair for that). Instead of just building another set of 6 litre boxes we will probably come up with something that tries to get a bit more out of them.
dave
dave
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