A few years ago I introduced a Danish friend to the beauty of single full range drivers. He contacted me a few days ago, after hearing what I believe must have been the Beauhorn Virtuoso, and asked me to construct a top of the range Lowther design for him. He's quite a peculiair fellow, an investment banker of seemingly unlimited means, who sets his mind on things then subsequently sticks to it; forever! I say this to pre-empt the obligatory "why don't you try a subwoofer" and "how about a 4-way, Open Baffle etc. design” replies. I've had these - and more (Feastrex, AER?) - discussions with him; he wants a top of the line -single driver - no subwoofer - no OB - money no object - Lowther design.
I suppose this means he would like a design utilizing the Alnico range, DX4 or EX4. The size of the design is not relevant. The room in which he will set them up is the size of a two car garage. Despite the size, the room is acoustically fairly dead, with many soft furnishings. The speakers will be driven by a KT88 SE I built for him quite a while ago. His current set-up includes this amp and a pair of Klipsch loudspeakers. He has no real corners to "corner-load". He can easily move the speakers away from the wall if necessary.
As for myself, I have no objections against filters, if used to even out the frequency response, baffle compensation, notch etc. I realize that every design will have its compromises. What I believe is important with Lowthers is that if a filter is involved it's calibrated towards a driver that has 200 - 300 hrs of playtime. Because he wants no additional LF assistance the design will need to generate bass sufficient for Jazz, Folk, Country, as well as world fusion Buddha Bar like music.
What I need to be successful is to have a tried and tested design, filter and all if applicable, preferably a good set of plans so I can have a carpenter do the initial cutting of the panels to save time. For any necessary or suggested tweaks I'd involve the diyAudio community.
I'd probably order the units from Lowther-America in May or so and build the speakers in August. I need advance time for the carpenter (he's great, excellent, but always busy and always a "man down" it would seem). If there is interest in the "community" I wouldn't mind sharing photos of the build and/or trying different techniques, set-ups etc. together.
Finally... my suggestion would have been to "buy a Beauhorn" but then, why should they have all the fun...
Ron
I suppose this means he would like a design utilizing the Alnico range, DX4 or EX4. The size of the design is not relevant. The room in which he will set them up is the size of a two car garage. Despite the size, the room is acoustically fairly dead, with many soft furnishings. The speakers will be driven by a KT88 SE I built for him quite a while ago. His current set-up includes this amp and a pair of Klipsch loudspeakers. He has no real corners to "corner-load". He can easily move the speakers away from the wall if necessary.
As for myself, I have no objections against filters, if used to even out the frequency response, baffle compensation, notch etc. I realize that every design will have its compromises. What I believe is important with Lowthers is that if a filter is involved it's calibrated towards a driver that has 200 - 300 hrs of playtime. Because he wants no additional LF assistance the design will need to generate bass sufficient for Jazz, Folk, Country, as well as world fusion Buddha Bar like music.
What I need to be successful is to have a tried and tested design, filter and all if applicable, preferably a good set of plans so I can have a carpenter do the initial cutting of the panels to save time. For any necessary or suggested tweaks I'd involve the diyAudio community.
I'd probably order the units from Lowther-America in May or so and build the speakers in August. I need advance time for the carpenter (he's great, excellent, but always busy and always a "man down" it would seem). If there is interest in the "community" I wouldn't mind sharing photos of the build and/or trying different techniques, set-ups etc. together.
Finally... my suggestion would have been to "buy a Beauhorn" but then, why should they have all the fun...
Ron
No holds barred, eh? Show him the Kleinhorn:
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn2.pdf
My bet is he'll find his boundaries pretty fast.
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn2.pdf
My bet is he'll find his boundaries pretty fast.
Checkout Nelson's work. His website has lots of Lowther evaluations and build ideas.
Here's one example of his work from RMAF 07: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1323075#post1323075
This set-up was reported to be one of the show highlights.
-David
Here's one example of his work from RMAF 07: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1323075#post1323075
This set-up was reported to be one of the show highlights.
-David
Since a driver needs to be chosen first, Jon ver Halen is likely
to suggest the PM5A's with the Ticonal and Permendur and overhung
copper voice coils.
I am still waiting to get them (salivate....)
Lacking that, my favorite has been the PM6A with Ticonal and the
silver 16 ohm overhung voice coils, the flattest 8" they make, I believe.
to suggest the PM5A's with the Ticonal and Permendur and overhung
copper voice coils.
I am still waiting to get them (salivate....)
Lacking that, my favorite has been the PM6A with Ticonal and the
silver 16 ohm overhung voice coils, the flattest 8" they make, I believe.
BHD said:No holds barred, eh? Show him the Kleinhorn:
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf
http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn2.pdf
My bet is he'll find his boundaries pretty fast.
Knowing him, he'd love 'em.
My problem is, how would I build them, then transport them to Denmark... I suppose I could place them on a small chassis, build in a hybrid engine (go green...) and drive them there. I could convert the second one in to a trailer and double it up as dog-house, which is where he'd inevitably spend an undefined amount of time after showing his new aquisition to his wife...
Next...
Nelson Pass said:Since a driver needs to be chosen first, Jon ver Halen is likely
to suggest the PM5A's with the Ticonal and Permendur and overhung
copper voice coils.
I am still waiting to get them (salivate....)
Lacking that, my favorite has been the PM6A with Ticonal and the
silver 16 ohm overhung voice coils, the flattest 8" they make, I believe.
Nelson,
What type of enclosure would you suggest for the PM6A and the PM5A (keeping in mind his wishes)?
Thanks,
Ron
One of the best Lowther based designs I've ever heard (and no, I haven't heard them all, but I have heard a few) is the Rethm design. Here's a link to a review ...
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0301/rethm.htm
Enjoy,
Bob
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0301/rethm.htm
Enjoy,
Bob
I've always liked the ISIS TP-1 Lowther design, the later one;
http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/tp1isis.pdf
http://www.pirkensee.de/Downloads/TP 1.pdf
Claimed Frequency Range of 30Hz-22,000 Hz always got my attention, as well as the 14' 10" long sound path; looked like a horn/TL combination. I also like the way they seem to be able to load both sides of the driver, (as did Beauhorn, etc later).
I was gonna build one for fostex 166es-r a few years ago, then Ron C came out with Austin, which gets a 6” FE166 down to 40 Hz, then a gradual roll off, built those instead...
Still wonder "what if...," but from what I've heard, FLHs sound better to my ears anyway...
http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/tp1isis.pdf
http://www.pirkensee.de/Downloads/TP 1.pdf
Claimed Frequency Range of 30Hz-22,000 Hz always got my attention, as well as the 14' 10" long sound path; looked like a horn/TL combination. I also like the way they seem to be able to load both sides of the driver, (as did Beauhorn, etc later).
I was gonna build one for fostex 166es-r a few years ago, then Ron C came out with Austin, which gets a 6” FE166 down to 40 Hz, then a gradual roll off, built those instead...
Still wonder "what if...," but from what I've heard, FLHs sound better to my ears anyway...
Are Ticonal and Alnico the same thing? I thought Ticonal was a trade name for Alnico. It would be great if someone could help verify this.
Interesting reading about the differences between alnico and ferrite, and the rapid industry conversion from alnico to ferrite in the late 70's due to the embargo of commercial cobalt used in Alnico from Zaire.
-David
Interesting reading about the differences between alnico and ferrite, and the rapid industry conversion from alnico to ferrite in the late 70's due to the embargo of commercial cobalt used in Alnico from Zaire.
-David
Ronmeister said:
Me, I'm really a big open baffle guy, which usually means a woofer below 80
Hz or so.
hifimaker said:
As I understand it, Ticonal is an Alnico variant. Jon her Halen got a hold of
some Lowthers using it, and they are the best I've heard, so there is the
temptation to ascribe those qualities to the Ticonal, although I have not
experienced a totally apples-apples comparison.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Carfrae Horn
This might give you some ideas to explore.
Carfrae has a 3.34 meter horn length and uses a tractix curve with only one bend. It stands 2.21m tall and about 95cm deep.
The website can be found here.
Stumbled across The Dino Horn while looking for some carfrae pics.
Cheers,
Alex
Thanks so far!
I've sent an email to Jon of Lowther-America to see what he suggests.
There are a lot of designs to consider. I like some of the commercial suggestions, such as the Carfrae and Rhetm, but don't think I'll be able to secure plans for them.
I've also emailed my affluent friend in Denmark with some of your suggestions. As expected he's sticking to his guns; no open baffle (sorry Nelson, I tried) or LF assistance. Estethically the front-runners, so far, are:
- TP1-Isis - with EX4? (thanks for the suggestsion serenechaos!)
- Audiovector - with PM5A?
- Medallion 2 or 3 - with DX4 (enough bass though?)
- Saxophon - with PM2A and PM6C (thanks HM!)
- Opus 1 - not sure which driver though
I suggested the KleinHorn, he mentioned he would probably be forced to live in them by his wife... close to my initial prognosis...
If anyone has any experience with the above designs, please share... I have limited experience (Fidelio - Medallion 2) and would appreciate your thoughts.
I'll await Jon's advice of course, but wanted to keep everyone up to date as well as give some hint as to the direction he's looking.
Please keep the suggestions coming.
I've sent an email to Jon of Lowther-America to see what he suggests.
There are a lot of designs to consider. I like some of the commercial suggestions, such as the Carfrae and Rhetm, but don't think I'll be able to secure plans for them.
I've also emailed my affluent friend in Denmark with some of your suggestions. As expected he's sticking to his guns; no open baffle (sorry Nelson, I tried) or LF assistance. Estethically the front-runners, so far, are:
- TP1-Isis - with EX4? (thanks for the suggestsion serenechaos!)
- Audiovector - with PM5A?
- Medallion 2 or 3 - with DX4 (enough bass though?)
- Saxophon - with PM2A and PM6C (thanks HM!)
- Opus 1 - not sure which driver though
I suggested the KleinHorn, he mentioned he would probably be forced to live in them by his wife... close to my initial prognosis...
If anyone has any experience with the above designs, please share... I have limited experience (Fidelio - Medallion 2) and would appreciate your thoughts.
I'll await Jon's advice of course, but wanted to keep everyone up to date as well as give some hint as to the direction he's looking.
Please keep the suggestions coming.
I personally like Jon VerHalen's Lowther/Tone Tubby Open Baffle design that he had at VSAC this last summer.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/vsac_2008/
While you're at it, build the Experience Music amp that really allows this speaker to "sing."
Best Regards,
TerryO
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/vsac_2008/
While you're at it, build the Experience Music amp that really allows this speaker to "sing."
Best Regards,
TerryO
The Ultimate Lowther
Yikes! This is a tall order, in part because everyone has a slightly different view of what what is the most important part of audio to them. Let me give some examples:
The 5" Lowthers have killer soundstage abilities, better than the 8". However, the 8" drivers have much better micro and macro dynamics - they follow the flow and emotion of the music better. Which is better? Isn't that taste?
The big neodynium magnets (DX4) do transients better than the Alnico - they sound faster and more dynamic. The Alnico magnets capture more of the low level information, sounding warming and capturing the harmonic development better. I find that most user into jazz and rock prefer the DX4 sound, and if you enjoy classical/ vocals the A series does a better job.
Application will affect which driver is better. For some reason, the DX4 sounds great in a back loaded horn, but not so good in an open baffle. The DX sound best when loaded a bit more.
Lets go on to different types of cabinets. The Opus 1 with a PM4A is just an awesome speaker, and truly goes full range from roughly 30 hertz to around 15 kHz. But it requires a corner to load it. Full range, reasonably sized cabinets either have to be corner loaded (i.e. Big Fun Horn, Beauhorn, Opus 1) or huge (i.e. Klien Horn, the big Carfrea, and the Yamamura). See Yamaura Churchill for information on the Yamamura.
For less than full range sound, there is a variety of systems. The reputed all time greatest is the PM4A ticonal, silver voice coil in the big Azurahorn. This goes from 150hz to 12kHz, so a little augmentation is required at both ends. Again, you have to like the sound of a front loaded horn for this to be "the best". A couple of these reside in the Fort Collins area, and EVERYONE who has heard rants about how it sounds. Next step is reasonable sized back loaded horns, like the smaller Carfrea, the Hedlund, or the Medallion.
Open Baffles? The PM6A has the flatest response. In every other way, the PM5A wins (dynamics, low level information, warmth, dynamics, speed, high end, and imaging). By toeing the PM5A properly it can get reasonably flat response with all the other benefits. BTW, that is why Nelson is waiting for my PM5A's, and why I am having a hard time sending them. But you need something to bring up the low end, as these will only go to 150 or 200 hz.
I will leave it to others to talk about other constructions such as TQWT or bass reflex. I just don't believe these represent an ultimate Lowther experience.
With regards to Ticonal vs Alnico. Ticonal is similar to Alnico, but is distinctly different. It includes titanium. The science is that different magnetic materials have fields which vary in stiffness. You want a stiff field, so that when the voice coil magnetic field pushes against it, it won't move. From least stiff to stiffest: Ferrite, Neodynium, Alnico, Ticonal.
Voice coils come in silver, copper, and standard (aluminum). To my ears, standard works fine with ferrite and neodymium magnets. Copper hurts the highs slightly, but adds warmth and low level information. It sounds more "whole". Silver is somewhere between the two.
So, giving you my list o' favorites:
Full range back loaded horn: can't say, I have only heard the Klein Horns. These were a lot of fun, but the thin walls were built as a quick and dirty project and needed stiffening to keep the bass under control. But tremendous fun. I would use the PM5A, copper voice coil here. Use a different, stiffer construction and this could be awesome.
Less than full range back loaded horn: The Hedlund horn modified for use with the PM5A copper voice coil. Build it with cold molded ply construction for best results, MDF is too flexible and kills bass transients when used in horn construction.
Front horn: Azura horn with PM4A, silver voice coil.
Corner horn: Opus 1, PM4A, silver voice coil
Imaging and flatest response: The Alerion, but modified for use with a A55 and silver voice coil. (Flat, but only to 45 hz.)
I prefer ticonal, but it is no longer produced and is rarely available. Not a huge difference, but it is simply more fun.
That should give you enough to chew on for awhile.
Yikes! This is a tall order, in part because everyone has a slightly different view of what what is the most important part of audio to them. Let me give some examples:
The 5" Lowthers have killer soundstage abilities, better than the 8". However, the 8" drivers have much better micro and macro dynamics - they follow the flow and emotion of the music better. Which is better? Isn't that taste?
The big neodynium magnets (DX4) do transients better than the Alnico - they sound faster and more dynamic. The Alnico magnets capture more of the low level information, sounding warming and capturing the harmonic development better. I find that most user into jazz and rock prefer the DX4 sound, and if you enjoy classical/ vocals the A series does a better job.
Application will affect which driver is better. For some reason, the DX4 sounds great in a back loaded horn, but not so good in an open baffle. The DX sound best when loaded a bit more.
Lets go on to different types of cabinets. The Opus 1 with a PM4A is just an awesome speaker, and truly goes full range from roughly 30 hertz to around 15 kHz. But it requires a corner to load it. Full range, reasonably sized cabinets either have to be corner loaded (i.e. Big Fun Horn, Beauhorn, Opus 1) or huge (i.e. Klien Horn, the big Carfrea, and the Yamamura). See Yamaura Churchill for information on the Yamamura.
For less than full range sound, there is a variety of systems. The reputed all time greatest is the PM4A ticonal, silver voice coil in the big Azurahorn. This goes from 150hz to 12kHz, so a little augmentation is required at both ends. Again, you have to like the sound of a front loaded horn for this to be "the best". A couple of these reside in the Fort Collins area, and EVERYONE who has heard rants about how it sounds. Next step is reasonable sized back loaded horns, like the smaller Carfrea, the Hedlund, or the Medallion.
Open Baffles? The PM6A has the flatest response. In every other way, the PM5A wins (dynamics, low level information, warmth, dynamics, speed, high end, and imaging). By toeing the PM5A properly it can get reasonably flat response with all the other benefits. BTW, that is why Nelson is waiting for my PM5A's, and why I am having a hard time sending them. But you need something to bring up the low end, as these will only go to 150 or 200 hz.
I will leave it to others to talk about other constructions such as TQWT or bass reflex. I just don't believe these represent an ultimate Lowther experience.
With regards to Ticonal vs Alnico. Ticonal is similar to Alnico, but is distinctly different. It includes titanium. The science is that different magnetic materials have fields which vary in stiffness. You want a stiff field, so that when the voice coil magnetic field pushes against it, it won't move. From least stiff to stiffest: Ferrite, Neodynium, Alnico, Ticonal.
Voice coils come in silver, copper, and standard (aluminum). To my ears, standard works fine with ferrite and neodymium magnets. Copper hurts the highs slightly, but adds warmth and low level information. It sounds more "whole". Silver is somewhere between the two.
So, giving you my list o' favorites:
Full range back loaded horn: can't say, I have only heard the Klein Horns. These were a lot of fun, but the thin walls were built as a quick and dirty project and needed stiffening to keep the bass under control. But tremendous fun. I would use the PM5A, copper voice coil here. Use a different, stiffer construction and this could be awesome.
Less than full range back loaded horn: The Hedlund horn modified for use with the PM5A copper voice coil. Build it with cold molded ply construction for best results, MDF is too flexible and kills bass transients when used in horn construction.
Front horn: Azura horn with PM4A, silver voice coil.
Corner horn: Opus 1, PM4A, silver voice coil
Imaging and flatest response: The Alerion, but modified for use with a A55 and silver voice coil. (Flat, but only to 45 hz.)
I prefer ticonal, but it is no longer produced and is rarely available. Not a huge difference, but it is simply more fun.
That should give you enough to chew on for awhile.
BFH, Opus 1 or TP1-Isis?
Wow Jon, that is a lot of info! Thanks!
Besides it being a real help now this is definitely "future-reference" stuff. With this latest project my year is full, but who knows what 2010 will bring, I was hoping something for uh... me...
Going back to the parameters set:
- Single Driver design
- Top of the line
- As full range as feasible
- No LF support
- No Open Baffle
- Plays mostly Jazz, World Fusion, less Country and Folk
- Transportable from CR to Denmark
- An inkling of WAF (a boundary BHD helped discover)
New info: we managed to open two corners for corner loading by re-arranging the listening room/cinema. We now have a 14' wall with two suitable corners. This proposal has been approved...
Reading through Jon's post and keeping in mind the parameters mentioned above, there are three main options:
- Big Fun Horn with DX4
- Beahorn (commercial design, so no plans)
- Opus 1 with PM4A
A fourth option?
- TP1-Isis with EX4
Musically the Big Fun Horn with the DX4 would fit the number one choice of music - Jazz. Optically, esthetically, the Opus 1 and TP1-Isis are (his) favorite.
A few questions for the "community":
- Does anyone have experience with building any of the above 3?
- Does anyone have photographs they'd like to share?
- Does anyone have plans for any of the 3 available for review?
- Any new suggestions within the above parameters?
I really appreciate all the input so far!
Ron
Wow Jon, that is a lot of info! Thanks!
Besides it being a real help now this is definitely "future-reference" stuff. With this latest project my year is full, but who knows what 2010 will bring, I was hoping something for uh... me...
Going back to the parameters set:
- Single Driver design
- Top of the line
- As full range as feasible
- No LF support
- No Open Baffle
- Plays mostly Jazz, World Fusion, less Country and Folk
- Transportable from CR to Denmark
- An inkling of WAF (a boundary BHD helped discover)
New info: we managed to open two corners for corner loading by re-arranging the listening room/cinema. We now have a 14' wall with two suitable corners. This proposal has been approved...
Reading through Jon's post and keeping in mind the parameters mentioned above, there are three main options:
- Big Fun Horn with DX4
- Beahorn (commercial design, so no plans)
- Opus 1 with PM4A
A fourth option?
- TP1-Isis with EX4
Musically the Big Fun Horn with the DX4 would fit the number one choice of music - Jazz. Optically, esthetically, the Opus 1 and TP1-Isis are (his) favorite.
A few questions for the "community":
- Does anyone have experience with building any of the above 3?
- Does anyone have photographs they'd like to share?
- Does anyone have plans for any of the 3 available for review?
- Any new suggestions within the above parameters?
I really appreciate all the input so far!
Ron
http://www.hornspeakers.co.uk/main.htm
http://www.lowther.com.hk/tp1.htm http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/opus1.html
etc, etc, etc... google is your friend!
I don't know if the big fun horn would be considered a "no-holds-barred" design, I haven't heard it, have only heard mixed reviews.
Beahorn mignt not be too hard to clone if that interested; expansion rate & length are given... Would be a little less gain from being little less length than TP-1, is why I was less interested in it "back then."
Opus 1 is very interesting; plans are available, and Jon Ver Halen puts it at the top of the list of corner horns, so what else is there to look for?
...ok; I might still call the hornspeakers.co.uk, who build both TP-1s & Opus 1s & ask them what the differences are. But that's just because I've wanted to build a TP-1 for years...
http://www.lowther.com.hk/tp1.htm http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/opus1.html
etc, etc, etc... google is your friend!
I don't know if the big fun horn would be considered a "no-holds-barred" design, I haven't heard it, have only heard mixed reviews.
Beahorn mignt not be too hard to clone if that interested; expansion rate & length are given... Would be a little less gain from being little less length than TP-1, is why I was less interested in it "back then."
Opus 1 is very interesting; plans are available, and Jon Ver Halen puts it at the top of the list of corner horns, so what else is there to look for?
...ok; I might still call the hornspeakers.co.uk, who build both TP-1s & Opus 1s & ask them what the differences are. But that's just because I've wanted to build a TP-1 for years...
Opus 1?
I fully agree, the Opus 1 looks like the way to go.
Having said that. It's a BIG investment, time-wise and financially, so I do want to make sure I've covered all aspects and have not missed out on a design I was unaware of. A knee-jerk decision is easier made from the side-lines, and it's not exactly my money, but it is my time so I'd like to avoid that.
As for Google, great for those living on land, on board a ship, with a very limited bandwidth, it can be an excruciating experience. That's why I appreciate the links provided all the more... it cuts out a few steps... the plans I did find of the Opus 1 were much, much too vague.
Anyway, back to work...
serenechaos said:http://www.hornspeakers.co.uk/main.htm
http://www.lowther.com.hk/tp1.htm http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/drawings/opus1.html
etc, etc, etc... google is your friend!
I don't know if the big fun horn would be considered a "no-holds-barred" design, I haven't heard it, have only heard mixed reviews.
Beahorn mignt not be too hard to clone if that interested; expansion rate & length are given... Would be a little less gain from being little less length than TP-1, is why I was less interested in it "back then."
Opus 1 is very interesting; plans are available, and Jon Ver Halen puts it at the top of the list of corner horns, so what else is there to look for?
...ok; I might still call the hornspeakers.co.uk, who build both TP-1s & Opus 1s & ask them what the differences are. But that's just because I've wanted to build a TP-1 for years...
I fully agree, the Opus 1 looks like the way to go.
Having said that. It's a BIG investment, time-wise and financially, so I do want to make sure I've covered all aspects and have not missed out on a design I was unaware of. A knee-jerk decision is easier made from the side-lines, and it's not exactly my money, but it is my time so I'd like to avoid that.
As for Google, great for those living on land, on board a ship, with a very limited bandwidth, it can be an excruciating experience. That's why I appreciate the links provided all the more... it cuts out a few steps... the plans I did find of the Opus 1 were much, much too vague.
Anyway, back to work...