Member
Joined 2004
Thanks for the link, but I've seen it before and that post doesn't answer my queries. It does not focus the loudspeaker cable section subject, and the few interconnect opinions aren't solid or deep. I am looking for knowledge and experience on this matter which I consider to be one of the major keys for building the right cable (number and section of conductors).
The post also doesn't exploit the combination of different section conductors. On interconnects I've only tried these DIY:
- 1x22awg (bass lacks impact; sound lacks body)
- 2x22awg (better, but lacks coherence and bass still lacks impact)
- 1x21awg + 1x22awg (better, warm, but clarity declined from 1x22awg)
- 1x26awg + 1x24awg + 1x22awg (better, excellent mids and treble but bass not quite there)
- 1x21awg (perfect bass, midband seems to have lost a little, yet a fine compromise).
These are just a few and basic combinations, probably not the best.
Now, about speakers cables, I've tried over 20 combinations, and I found this to be the best so far:
- 3 x 17awg + 2 x 19awg + 2 x 21awg.
Regards
Alves
The post also doesn't exploit the combination of different section conductors. On interconnects I've only tried these DIY:
- 1x22awg (bass lacks impact; sound lacks body)
- 2x22awg (better, but lacks coherence and bass still lacks impact)
- 1x21awg + 1x22awg (better, warm, but clarity declined from 1x22awg)
- 1x26awg + 1x24awg + 1x22awg (better, excellent mids and treble but bass not quite there)
- 1x21awg (perfect bass, midband seems to have lost a little, yet a fine compromise).
These are just a few and basic combinations, probably not the best.
Now, about speakers cables, I've tried over 20 combinations, and I found this to be the best so far:
- 3 x 17awg + 2 x 19awg + 2 x 21awg.
Regards
Alves
Member
Joined 2004
Alves,
That´s quite an effort you´re doing!
Perhaps I´m being too picky but I still find your queries a bit vague.
What is the configuration being used in your experiments?
Are you using always the same geometry and dielectric materials?
When you say "1 X ..." is that for a coax, I believe ? How closed is the shield to the wire btw?
And when you say "1 X ... + 2 X ... + ...", do all those wires act as signal conductors? And are they individually isolated?
(We´ll have to forget about the synergy between components and the "YOUR system, YOUR ears" thing. If your system had too much bass impact and body then the 1 X 21 awg would be the perfect cross-section, etc... otherwise we´ll be getting nowhere).
Epá, já agora és daonde?
Cheers
That´s quite an effort you´re doing!
Perhaps I´m being too picky but I still find your queries a bit vague.
What is the configuration being used in your experiments?
Are you using always the same geometry and dielectric materials?
When you say "1 X ..." is that for a coax, I believe ? How closed is the shield to the wire btw?
And when you say "1 X ... + 2 X ... + ...", do all those wires act as signal conductors? And are they individually isolated?
(We´ll have to forget about the synergy between components and the "YOUR system, YOUR ears" thing. If your system had too much bass impact and body then the 1 X 21 awg would be the perfect cross-section, etc... otherwise we´ll be getting nowhere).
Epá, já agora és daonde?
Cheers
Alves said:
Hello Alves!
Before you decide, here are a couple of links on DIY Cables.
See how others do it. Cant hurt.
You might already have studied these articles:
Cables, Interconnects & Other Stuff
Home > DIY & Tweaking > Cables
Good audio Cable's Constructing is not a very easy thing.
Some think so, but it is not.
Good luck
Member
Joined 2004
PauSim
As I see it:
Whatever opinion you have today, it may be another tomorrow.
To compare your own opinion to other opinions puts your own ideas to the test.
If you are not sure about your idea, you maybe be afraid to hear others.
Also the more information you can get from persons that have done some thinking about it, the more you are ready to make your own choice.
I do not like attitude, which try to tell people what to think about cables.
They are free to think and do whatever.
I just want to inform what others have found and are thinking and doing.
There are more sides to a coin than one.
A human with two eyes can choose to use only one
and keep the other closed.
But would this be wise?
This question remains:
If cables are good enough specified for their job,
then, is it possible to hear any sound quality change
by using one cable or another?
And likewise:
If 2 transistors are close in specifications and good enough for their job,
then, is it possible to hear any sound quality change
by using one transistor or another?
Guess we will never know for sure!
As I see it:
Whatever opinion you have today, it may be another tomorrow.
To compare your own opinion to other opinions puts your own ideas to the test.
If you are not sure about your idea, you maybe be afraid to hear others.
Also the more information you can get from persons that have done some thinking about it, the more you are ready to make your own choice.
I do not like attitude, which try to tell people what to think about cables.
They are free to think and do whatever.
I just want to inform what others have found and are thinking and doing.
There are more sides to a coin than one.
A human with two eyes can choose to use only one
and keep the other closed.
But would this be wise?
This question remains:
If cables are good enough specified for their job,
then, is it possible to hear any sound quality change
by using one cable or another?
And likewise:
If 2 transistors are close in specifications and good enough for their job,
then, is it possible to hear any sound quality change
by using one transistor or another?
Guess we will never know for sure!
lineup, thanks for the links.
PauSim,
I always use solid core conductors in every experiments, 99.99999% perfect silver by AudioTruth. All the wires are individually isolated (air and teflon). Geometry is a twisted serpentine like the one used by Kimber Select.
Shield is an external serpentine made of 1 x 22AWG silver (outside the level-2 isolation, which is very large - near 1" diameter teflon tube with very thick wall) - I have obtained marvellous shielding results by using this large teflon isolation and by moving the shield to the outside of the interconnect.
Connectors are WBT-108, crimp version - the best I've used so far. Better than my experience with other RCA connectors using silver solder. Near the RCA connectors, I use a third level of Teflon isolation that "eats" the connectors.
The most dramatic changes on my system were achieved by changing the cables and the speakers.
Previously to DIYing the cables I've used up to $5000 cables that were a bargain.
Regards
Alves
PauSim,
I always use solid core conductors in every experiments, 99.99999% perfect silver by AudioTruth. All the wires are individually isolated (air and teflon). Geometry is a twisted serpentine like the one used by Kimber Select.
Shield is an external serpentine made of 1 x 22AWG silver (outside the level-2 isolation, which is very large - near 1" diameter teflon tube with very thick wall) - I have obtained marvellous shielding results by using this large teflon isolation and by moving the shield to the outside of the interconnect.
Connectors are WBT-108, crimp version - the best I've used so far. Better than my experience with other RCA connectors using silver solder. Near the RCA connectors, I use a third level of Teflon isolation that "eats" the connectors.
The most dramatic changes on my system were achieved by changing the cables and the speakers.
Previously to DIYing the cables I've used up to $5000 cables that were a bargain.
Regards
Alves
Member
Joined 2004
lineup said:There are more sides to a coin than one.
A human with two eyes can choose to use only one
and keep the other closed.
But would this be wise?
At night, if the enemy beams a strong searchlight at you, it´s best to keep only an eye open. When you start to become blind just close it and open the other, while shooting.
I learned this at the army
Cheers
Member
Joined 2004
Alves,
Why Silver? Why not a heavier gauge copper conductor of the same resistance?
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Why Silver? Why not a heavier gauge copper conductor of the same resistance?
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
PauSim, I have not enough 26awg wire for that geometry.
Twisted serpentine: Inside the cable I use a rope and the conductors go around that rope like a snake around a tree.
Sir Trefor, I made only a few experiments with copper but the extension (top and bottom) was not the same I was getting with silver. Detail and silences were also better with silver. Probably I was not using the best copper.
What brand of copper do you recommend?
Regards,
Alves
Twisted serpentine: Inside the cable I use a rope and the conductors go around that rope like a snake around a tree.
Sir Trefor, I made only a few experiments with copper but the extension (top and bottom) was not the same I was getting with silver. Detail and silences were also better with silver. Probably I was not using the best copper.
What brand of copper do you recommend?
Regards,
Alves
Member
Joined 2004
Oh I tried that too. It seems to give no character of its own, which is a good thing.
Well, when you have enogh wires you could experiment with a Kimber Hero Serpentine then. Place the rope in the middle of the four wires and start braiding.
wire 1 wire 2 rope wire 3 wire 4
Another thing: everytime a new design sounds too heavy on the bass, for example, I try to re-tune the system. Bring the speakers more upfront...
Well, when you have enogh wires you could experiment with a Kimber Hero Serpentine then. Place the rope in the middle of the four wires and start braiding.
wire 1 wire 2 rope wire 3 wire 4
Another thing: everytime a new design sounds too heavy on the bass, for example, I try to re-tune the system. Bring the speakers more upfront...
copper-wire
Alves, if your into oxygen-free copper try any kind of oxygen-free copper magnet wire you want. I have never done any comparative sound tests between OF copper, and standard copper(if you go to the engineer's site I linked to, you will see he does not believe there is a significant difference between the two). I use Essex magnet wire for my speakers. Magnet wire has the advantage of having little or no Dielectric absorption
Alves, if your into oxygen-free copper try any kind of oxygen-free copper magnet wire you want. I have never done any comparative sound tests between OF copper, and standard copper(if you go to the engineer's site I linked to, you will see he does not believe there is a significant difference between the two). I use Essex magnet wire for my speakers. Magnet wire has the advantage of having little or no Dielectric absorption
DIY interconnects
My friend and I have been experimenting with DIY interconnect cables because the commercial cables that sound best to us approach astronomical pricing.
We have not confirmed whether copper or silver is best but think they are different. Copper appears warmer and silver appears somewhat tilted up at the high end, it would depend very much on your system which of these two seemed more neutral. We believe, so far without confirmation, that both purity and grain structure of the conductors matter.
What we are most sure about is that the choice of insulator and its' dielectric constant is very important. Even beyond the dielectric, a construction technique that guarantees as much space (or air) between the conductors as possible seems most important. The choice of insulator and the air space are two factors that seem to control the amount of hash or smear created by the cable. The hash seems mostly concentrated in the upper mid or sibilants region of the audio spectrum and also appears to mask or reduce dynamic range.
So far Teflon seems to be the best insulator material. We have not found a source of foamed Teflon, we suspect this would be better yet,
Keeping the wires far appart while still maintaing an anti EMI/RFI construction method is not all that easy. Braiding seems to not be the best choice, unless perhaps you braid over a hollow tube.
We have also not resolved either the best wire guage or the best number of wires. Nor do we know if composite guage (lots of tiny wires) acts the same as a single larger gauge.
The number of variables is quite large, but we do seem to hear minor differences for each construction technique we have tried. One problem we have found is that some cables that sound a little better on one CD might be worse on another, so even evaluating the test cables takes a lot of time. Adding a reasonable break in period means the number of tests in a given time frame is small.
My friend and I have been experimenting with DIY interconnect cables because the commercial cables that sound best to us approach astronomical pricing.
We have not confirmed whether copper or silver is best but think they are different. Copper appears warmer and silver appears somewhat tilted up at the high end, it would depend very much on your system which of these two seemed more neutral. We believe, so far without confirmation, that both purity and grain structure of the conductors matter.
What we are most sure about is that the choice of insulator and its' dielectric constant is very important. Even beyond the dielectric, a construction technique that guarantees as much space (or air) between the conductors as possible seems most important. The choice of insulator and the air space are two factors that seem to control the amount of hash or smear created by the cable. The hash seems mostly concentrated in the upper mid or sibilants region of the audio spectrum and also appears to mask or reduce dynamic range.
So far Teflon seems to be the best insulator material. We have not found a source of foamed Teflon, we suspect this would be better yet,
Keeping the wires far appart while still maintaing an anti EMI/RFI construction method is not all that easy. Braiding seems to not be the best choice, unless perhaps you braid over a hollow tube.
We have also not resolved either the best wire guage or the best number of wires. Nor do we know if composite guage (lots of tiny wires) acts the same as a single larger gauge.
The number of variables is quite large, but we do seem to hear minor differences for each construction technique we have tried. One problem we have found is that some cables that sound a little better on one CD might be worse on another, so even evaluating the test cables takes a lot of time. Adding a reasonable break in period means the number of tests in a given time frame is small.
Member
Joined 2004
This does seem to be a most common technique, specially in equipment that uses point to point wiring. Tests my friend and I have performed demonstrate that capacitance and dielectric constant significantly influence interconnect cables sound. Point to point typically minimizes capacitance.
The problem comes in for external cables because of the need to surpress EMI and RFI signals. Usually this means shielding (adds capacitance) or twisted pairs (can add capacitance) or both.
The problem comes in for external cables because of the need to surpress EMI and RFI signals. Usually this means shielding (adds capacitance) or twisted pairs (can add capacitance) or both.
Member
Joined 2004
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.