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Grundig is better than PassLabs, there's no matter!
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:49 AM   #31
bitsandbobs is offline bitsandbobs  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by diyralf View Post
Grundig was the only company in history that built studio quality into consumer equipment at a very low price. Unfortunately, the Japanese attacks made them bankrupt.

Well we don't really know if Massimo is having us on regarding the early Grundig products being very very good indeed compared to so called hi-end alternatives... hence rather than dissecting the whole thing down and wondering - it might be easier to listen for ourselves (i.e. Grundig V1700) - then the proof will be in the pudding.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:34 PM   #32
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Grundig is better than PassLabs, there's no matter!
Hi diyralf,
Quote:
Grundig was the only company in history that built studio quality into consumer equipment at a very low price.
I think that statement is full of problems. Define "studio quality" as you see it. Real studio quality costs money and can't be offered in a cheap package without losing some aspects, meaning it is no longer studio quality.

Quote:
Unfortunately, the Japanese attacks made them bankrupt.
Nope. It was our own retailers and advertising that killed good audio companies. The decline of good quality equipment centers around greed and the desire to get something for nothing. Retailers pushed new equipment with features over good designs with high quality sound, and devalued old equipment (in sales pitches) in order to sell boxes with higher profit margins. Then there was multichannel pushed. Consumers finally figured out they were buying junk and gave up on the idea of a good sound system.

We all did it to ourselves, we voted with our dollars, accepted contract manufacturing and did not demand backup service from distributors. Repair by replacement should never have been allowed and RoHS was a response to manufactured junk that couldn't be serviced. They should have mandated some minimum level of quality and applied laws already on the books for force support for products sold for a least 5 years.

Today in Canada we don't even have sales offices anymore, never mind parts inventories and service people. The passing of older, excellent audio companies is our own doing - and the greed and lack of morals of stereo stores.

Finally I have to say that "no single snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible". That describes all of us and our part in the demise of what was a healthy and responsible audio industry. It took years to get here and consistent effort of a lot of people to get something for nothing. The end loser (as always) is the consumer, but we all did it to ourselves.

Japan didn't attack BTW They are also a victim as you can't manufacture anything there as the costs are too high. Contract manufacturing though out Asia killed high quality manufacturing, and the willingness of companies to buy designs with zero support. I would have to say that Philips is one of the worst offenders here. Just look at their history of supporting CD transports. Abysmal, the flooded the market with cheap transports and hung everyone out to dry - no support at all. Too bad for us I guess. Philips killed Marantz in the North American market. Bought the name and sold us garbage trading on an excellent name. That was a cash grab and rip-off that they pulled on this market. In effect, a big lie. They do that a lot if you check their history.

-Chris
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:03 PM   #33
diyralf is offline diyralf
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You can use a handful of transistors, resistors, and capacitors to build an amplifier that is absolute junk. With the same components you can build an amplifier that has excellent studio quality. At the same cost. The decisive ingredient is called intelligence. Grundig had the best HF and LF engineers at all in the 70s. They got what was technically feasible out of every component. Due to the high production numbers in Europe and worldwide, the devices were also very, very cheap. By the way: the V1700 is an absolute entry-level device. the quality is not so outstanding, but good.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:41 PM   #34
bitsandbobs is offline bitsandbobs  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diyralf View Post
By the way: the V1700 is an absolute entry-level device. the quality is not so outstanding, but good.

..... you've had experience of the V1700 ?



If it does sound good - why shouldn't it? Just because the engineering is behind a facade of bland plastic, cosmetics shouldn't hold it back (a proper wolf in sheep's clothing). Anyway I haven't heard one for myself to comment.



The same could be said for Croft engineering here in the UK - bland looking - but sounds great.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:05 PM   #35
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Grundig is better than PassLabs, there's no matter!
Hi diyralf,
Grundig had good engineers, not the best. Sorry. You just insulted a lot of engineers, but that's just an attitude thing you have. The best engineers worked in industry, not consumer electronics. They worked on real problems.

The thing is, the chassis is extremely important to performance, as is the power supply. Those things are heavy and cost a lot of money compared to the actual circuits. Revox tuners come the closest to actual good engineering practices. Quite frankly, they are better. Must be because they had real RF engineers or something. Of all the tuners I have the pick of, I chose a Revox B261. I have serviced tuners for decades and still do. Hmmm, could it be that I know something? I also put my money where my mouth is. Yes, I have owned Grundig equipment before ... but not now. Must be a reason for that. I have also owned B&O (don't miss it, it's gone) I do still own Marantz and a few other brands. The engineering is better. I also own some Cyrus Mono X amplifiers, and they are happily still with me. Not cheap, but engineered very well. Let's see, Denon and Studer CD players, Thorens turntables, Luxman amps and preamps. No junk in that mix. Cassette decks are Nakamichi. I have worked on all of these under warranty and past along with many other brands.

Hi bitsandbobs,
The case and chassis is part of the engineering. Plastic offers zero shielding and that does matter. The thickness and number of shields also make a difference depending on the signal levels. There is zero excuse for a total lack of shielding unless the budget is so slim that inferior performance is acceptable. That kind of says it all, doesn't it? This covers all products and brands, I am not picking on any brand specifically.

-Chris
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:33 PM   #36
bitsandbobs is offline bitsandbobs  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post

Hi bitsandbobs,
The case and chassis is part of the engineering. Plastic offers zero shielding and that does matter. The thickness and number of shields also make a difference depending on the signal levels. There is zero excuse for a total lack of shielding unless the budget is so slim that inferior performance is acceptable. That kind of says it all, doesn't it? This covers all products and brands, I am not picking on any brand specifically.

-Chris

Hi anatech - both DNM and NVA dislike metal boxes around their electronics for their own reasons.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:36 PM   #37
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Grundig is better than PassLabs, there's no matter!
Well, those reasons are economic, not anything to do with engineering.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:39 PM   #38
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
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Grundig is better than PassLabs, there's no matter!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitsandbobs View Post
The same could be said for Croft engineering here in the UK - bland looking - but sounds great.

For a moment I thought you were being serious.


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Hi anatech - both DNM and NVA dislike metal boxes around their electronics for their own reasons.
Ah you are being serious.
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Old 5th March 2021, 06:00 PM   #39
bitsandbobs is offline bitsandbobs  United Kingdom
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Well what the heck - I thought I would email Massimo for advice - and I going to put together a low cost Grundig system and see (hear) for myself.


If it's all true then you may as well consign all your bling and high end systems to the nearby skip (jesting of course).



It's alright criticizing left right and centre - I'm going to see if this fable is true or not and let my ears be the ultimate evidence. I can always sell it on after the experiment so no harm done.



Now give me time to build the system .... to be continued ....
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Old 12th March 2021, 08:20 AM   #40
Lampie519 is offline Lampie519  Netherlands
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Many ideas at the time were great as these have not been thought of earlier. Now we have advanced (not always for the better) and do not think that the old tech is special anymore. Sometime you still can find technical treasures like Allen Wright did when he discovered the SLCF (Super Linear Cathode Follower) in the manuals of HP.

I also think that some ideas are not created by the manufacturers but by others that have order it to be made by this manufacturer and now gets all the credit.

This is especially the case with Telefunken (mentioned earlier in the thread) as the IRT was the one that gave Telefunken the job to build it (probably because they could do it on a lower budget). The same stuff mas build by other like Siemens & Halske or Maihak using the blueprint given by the IRT (Braunbuch). So not the companies are the ones that should be given all the credit.
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