litz inductor wire for speaker wire.

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I have played with litz wire and will do some more experimenting in the future, but with everything, I will want empirical data to back up any changes I percieve (I dont always trust my senses as so many thing inluence the way I percieve, this morning all my music sounds fuggy, this though is down to the effects of a few (!) cans of Carslberg Special Brew (AKA Hobo Pops) last night.

Have a look around for lazy electrons approx 84mm/hour
http://www.radioelectronicschool.net/files/downloads/howfast.pdf

I will try to read that link later on. As far as checking the data? What if what is being heard is actually being caused by something not being measured for? That one type of cable trying to solve one problem, inadvertently eliminated a distortion that is never looked for, because it yet remains an unknown? As far as litz? The homogenization of sound may not be the best term. I see it as higher definition audio. Like focusing a microscope to get a crystal clear image versus a slightly fuzzy focus. On all the systems I have used it it always made a difference which was a step closer to reality. On one system it may have improved the sound, yet the system needed more improving in another way. Its just a standard I have learned to integrate into whatever I choose to do. I purchased raw litz, not the fancy stuff that you pay $200.00 a meter for. It looks like junk and is wrapped in a silk threaded wrap. Its a pain to solder because one must use a solder pot to tin the ends by melting off the enamel coating. But, I go for sound above appearance. When the music sounds excellent, no one is looking at the speaker wires.

Another audio component that I have been implementing since its inception back in the 80's, is the Barcus Berry Sonic Maximizer. It did not matter what quality speaker it may be. The BBE always improved the sound and added greater realism when used judiciously. The BBE works with correcting harmonics and phase problems that is almost universal because of the nature of speaker design. When listening nearfield, i can turn a pair of 400.00 speakers into something money can not buy by speakers alone. That is another component I will not do without. Aurally, to be without it, its like going visually without your reading glasses. If you wear glasses you will understand what I mean. Not very expensive either. Are you familiar with it?

http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/vg360.aspx
I hate the way they market it today. When it was first introduced it was presented as a way to improve serious high end audio. Stereophile magazine gave a favorable review, amongst others. It makes well recorded jazz and classical music sound fantastic! The litz provides me with a clarity in combination with the BBE that is unachievable otherwise. Yet, litz is not as essential as the BBE. But I would not ever want to be without it after having heard the difference. Its a synergistic effect that brings you closer to a genuine live performance. And, you do not have to spend thousands only to find yourself wondering what the problem may be.

Wishing you well, Gene
 
The BBE works with correcting harmonics and phase problems
Their website is mainly woffle, but my guess is that it is just an FX box. Maybe a subtle FX box, but an FX box. So, you prefer your sound modified? Many do. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just admit it.

If I put an audio signal through 10's of metres of cable type X, then find that replacing the last half a metre with cable type Y appears to improve the sound then the most rational explanation is not that Y improves the sound (because there is still a lot of X in the system), but that Y distorts the sound in a way which I happen to prefer. It's what I call the vanilla ice cream model. Lots of people like vanilla ice cream, but some of them try to pretend that vanilla ice cream is actually plain unflavoured ice cream. They claim that adding vanilla does not flavour the ice cream, but it removes pre-existing contaminants which would otherwise spoil the flavour. When you give them genuine pure unflavoured ice cream they don't like it; to them it appears tasteless, so they add vanilla but claim that they are making the ice cream more pure!
 
OK, EQ rather than FX. I have not come across it before, and the website is unclear. Maybe if it was sold as a plain EQ box then it would be cheaper? And I thought the 'high-end' had moved away from tone controls! Wait a minute: harmonic synthesisers - that couldn't be added distortion, now, could it?

Vanilla ice cream!


Its not an EQ box. Equalizers have been known to cause a phase shift. The BBE actually helps to alleviate common phase shifts caused by typical speaker design. It does not just boost the bottom end on smaller speakers. It also applies phase correction in the process, which explains why the image is always so well placed when using it. When using a sub woofer, I found a disconnect because of the gross time misalignment caused by placement. Some just don't care and only want to feel the room move. What I hear is bass to scale. I like the realistic sound stage.


No one can get an absolutely neutral reproduction of what was recorded. Too many variables. One must find something that pleases them personally. Period.
 
Actually, yes, it is an EQ box. Measure the frequency and response- it will take you less than a minute to convince yourself that one of its main functions is boosting of midbass and treble..

The phase stuff is marketing. If your speakers' frequency response isn't flat, you'll get phase shifts, proportional to the derivative of the amplitude with frequency. If you EQ them to make them flat, the EQ indeed introduces phase shifts- but exactly the opposite of the phase shifts of the speaker. As pinkmouse pointed out, this effects box adds extra distortion. It's the sonic equivalent of MSG. And many people like it or they wouldn't have been selling these thngs for as long as they have.
 
Actually, yes, it is an EQ box. Measure the frequency and response- it will take you less than a minute to convince yourself that one of its main functions is boosting of midbass and treble..

The phase stuff is marketing. If your speakers' frequency response isn't flat, you'll get phase shifts, proportional to the derivative of the amplitude with frequency. If you EQ them to make them flat, the EQ indeed introduces phase shifts- but exactly the opposite of the phase shifts of the speaker. As pinkmouse pointed out, this effects box adds extra distortion. It's the sonic equivalent of MSG. And many people like it or they wouldn't have been selling these thngs for as long as they have.

I have tried Equalizers... even high end. Nothing from them like I hear with this. Nothing.


I wish you could hear what I hear. I think it would settle it for many of you. Of course, it would not be what everyone is looking for. For, I now listen exclusively near field. With a very good DAC, a very good small amp, and very good speakers. The speakers have not been given the litz treatment yet. New. Still breaking in.

What I hear is sometimes frustrating for me because I do not like knowing what I do alone. Like I mentioned earlier. I used to work in a audio shop years ago that carried high-end equipment. I have watched rich folks searching for that golden chalice. They spend huge bucks and convince themselves that it must be all there is, and still can not understand what is wrong.

In contrast, I listen to a set up of very modest means. It puts to shame the set ups I have owned, and those heard from others.. I find near field done right surprisingly excellent.

My niece's husband was playing a game on my PC that contained background music and dialogue. While playing he exclaimed how good it sounded. He is by no means an audiophile. When it sounds good, it simply sounds good.

I hope the folks here realize that I am not trying to compete with anyone to show off that I have what is better than others. Not the case. I wish to share this information. I am not trying to make someone jealous as I have seen some do in these types of forums.

I couldn't do that, even if I wanted to. For what I have anyone of modest means could easily afford. Its the synergistic package that makes it work. But, as I find as with other good things. The cynics are sometimes their own worst enemy. Always seeking to shoot holes through something, but never bringing home a fresh meal.

For the love of music... Gene
 
Good ones. :D

Check the articles section here for my phono preamp, my website (syclotron), AudioXpress, and Linear Audio for other projects and technical articles.

I see you like tubes, too. No longer, but I once owned a Mac MC 275, and C20, both refurbished and modified by the New York Electronic Works. That was my first tube units that I used. For a short while I got my hands on a rare Luxman tube amp that I purchased at a salesman accommodation rate. We did not know about breaking in electronics back then. I did not keep it very long.

Right now I have in mothballs a Roy Grant hybrid tub- pre/mosfet-out - integrated, that I had imported from Britain back in the days when I had a very good job. Bought it a while back, but have not able to use it probably more than two hours since. I had to move soon after purchase, and it was always been too much for what I needed. That's been a point of frustration for me. But my brand new speakers are not the most efficient, so I may be taking the Grant out again in the not too distant future.

The Grant comes with a tube phono. But, no more table. Had a Merrill Heirloom with a Grado arm. That was passed along in the frantic shuffle when I needed to move. Not complaining.

What some here have yet to discover is that the Barcus Berry is not simply EQ. It produces a transparency that EQ alone can not begin to touch. My small 22 watt solid state sounds beautiful at present, but with my new speakers the Grant may be just what is needed for the 86 db efficiency.

Row.. row..row.. your boat. Gently down the drain. If that creek looked a little bit odd to you. Its not because you're insane.
;-)
 
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It is not too difficult to make a weak system sound superficially impressive. Boost the bass and treble - I think this used to be called 'boom and tizz'. Then add a little second-order distortion - enough to add an octave up, but not too much otherwise intermods become too noticeable on some types of music. Many cheap systems (and some very expensive ones) have this processing built-in, which may be why some people find real hi-fi rather flat and boring.

If you want to correct phase problems you have to start by measuring them, then design an inverse filter, but remembering that the laws of causality and complex numbers will seriously constrain what is possible. You can get round some of these constraints by using a digital filter, but that introduces new problems. Wiring in a box and twiddling some knobs until it sounds 'better' is not quite the same thing!
 
Since I was just yesterday winding a transformer primary with some litz wire;

As already mentioned initially in this thread Litz wire can be more flexible than most, so at least for the tone arm is it possible that if used in the space where the wire needs to flex that it can play a part in the overall sound dynamics?
:radar:

Hope this helps
-Antonio
 
It is not too difficult to make a weak system sound superficially impressive. Boost the bass and treble - I think this used to be called 'boom and tizz'.


Sir, contrary to the impression some here appear to have of me, I am not a jerk. I know excellent audio when I hear it. And, I know of what you speak. I used to sell audio. I know what people did in attempts for better audio. I was a purist in those days. It gets you no where. I have been involved with audio systems of some famous professional musicians.

And, true reproduction audio is not flat and boring. For it can not exist. For your room is part of the system. I have played live in different rooms. Each room determined the sound extracted from the instrument. So, we might as well make up our minds that an absolute sound does not exist. And, what studios today can do to the sound can be quite flat and boring without the engineer adding in effects to give it great life.

If I were still selling audio today I would simply give an A/B demo. Then I would ask. You want accuracy? Or, what sounds more like real music? Full range electrotats never had the transparency I am now hearing. As pleasant as tubes are there are certain inherent built in limits to speaker design that needs to be compensated for. If that were not the case? Rich folks would not be spending 20,000 for a speaker system that will give them something impressive.. but that's all.

Have I walked into a play ground here where I do not belong? Are the kids here having a snobbery that must remain right?

There is no audio system that does not color the sound. Ziltch! No one has a system that perfectly reproduces what was played. We all choose our coloration. Depending upon our personality and emotional make up will determine what we find appealing. Yet, there is always an element of accuracy possible in what we can hear. One of a convincing live performance, but not as the live performance was actually heard by those present.

So pick your coloration. Some choose to be a puritan and pick dullness that we all must suffer through, with an occasional highlight thrown in for excitement. For that is what electronically reproduced music is. Its not an actual reproduction. Its a representation.
 
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Yes, I guess it is possible that Litz wire can have mechanical benefits for tone arms but normal thin cable correctly positioned may be just as good.

Given the difficulty of making good terminations on Litz wire I would think that Litz should only be used where its particular properties outweigh the disadvantages.


Yes... for those who have ears to hear what it eliminates in the audio signal. For those who do not? Makes no difference.
 
Since I was just yesterday winding a transformer primary with some litz wire;

As already mentioned initially in this thread Litz wire can be more flexible than most, so at least for the tone arm is it possible that if used in the space where the wire needs to flex that it can play a part in the overall sound dynamics?
:radar:

Hope this helps
-Antonio

Back when I used phono cartridges, litz eliminated a universally heard hi end frizzle sound that many accept as being part of what we get from an audio system. Litz took you one step further away from sounding electronic, and more acoustic. At first listen, some may even say it was dull in comparison. But it was eliminating a certain aura of busy-ness to the hi end that typical stranded wire normally passes along. Trouble is, just having it in the tone arm is not enough to reveal its benefit. The entire audio chain must be the same in its effect. Because what one eliminates at the tone arm will be produced elsewhere by time it reaches the speaker. And litz is a real pain when it comes to soldering. No pain, no gain.
 
Have I walked into a play ground here where I do not belong? Are the kids here having a snobbery that must remain right?

Perhaps, perhaps not. This site is devoted to people who design and build things, not to the marketing of commercial gear. Most of the participants are technically competent, some are extremely technically astute, with decades of design, measurement, and listening experience. It's a different audience than the dermatologists, attorneys, and investment bankers who pass through high end audio shops. Statements that are contrary to their experience will be challenged- you can choose to refute them (e.g., post a measurement of the frequency response or distortion spectrum of the BBE effects box as a counterargument) or just ignore what smart, experienced, and accomplished technologists have to say and gain no new knowledge. Your choice.
 
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