There is much more involved with gaining mechanical benefits of a tone arm than simply the wire. I remember damping the outside of the cartridge shell. That effected the sound, What a cartridge body is made of effects the sound. You dampen the head shell it will effect the sound. I remember all the dampening done to the platter, and even adding a damping weight over the record spindle. I even had a Japanese product which was an alignment tool that was used re-cut and replace the record's center hole perfectly so there would be no sway in the arm when playing... not to mention always having to contend with the anti-skate effect when playing.
Being vinyl, records add a coloration to the music all their own. The cartridge cantilever material will effect the sound. Turntables do, too. Not that it will not be pleasant. But, all we hear coming from the speakers is the results of many forms of subtle coloration all working together to produce a culminated effect on the music as it reaches our ears. I believe the less mechanical involvement in producing the audio will render something closer to what was actually being recorded. Also, that way, you stand a better chance of picking and controlling your preferred colorations.
I remember when I first became zealous for tubes. Some of the technologists I knew were jumping in and telling me that I liked distortions and effects that were not real to music. They may have been partially right technically. But they were also wrong. Dick Sequerra once told me that he lamented being one of those who was a strong advocate for advancing the transistor when it became a breakthrough. Likewise, some here may someday lament their current stand, as well.
I remember how I was held in rapture listening to LP's in front of (nearfield) a portable tube Magnovox stereo record player. The kind with the cheap speakers on hinges that swung open to give you left and right. Later on, when sitting in front of a very expensive system of my own ... I could not recapture that joy I felt earlier. Even though I could hear all the instruments with much greater clarity.
There is something much greater involved with music that becomes lost when we turn to seek pleasure in solely in its technology, and use only music as a means to find our joy in that area. I must clarify.. There is nothing wrong with that in itself. Technology is a source of great joy for those so inclined. But, not to use that knowledge to throw a wet blanket over others who still enjoy the music where they find it not meeting their standards.
I realize now that I used to quietly envy those who could listen to what I thought was an inferior audio system, yet were enjoying what they heard. I now can take pleasure in introducing them to what I think is better sound, but I do not hold it against them for liking what they do if they show no desire. I used to.
My main concern (and others here) is enjoying music by eliminating negative colorations with no hope of eliminating all colorations. For some colorations are like pleasant scents and shades of lighting to our ears.
I do not think we are fighting so much here out of audio xenophobia ... I believe the conflict may stem from not sharing the same exact source for our joy. Some love the technological side and hate feeling ignored when someone is taking pleasure in something that makes them feel left out over something they see as superficial and for the simple minded. It happens.
Now.. I resented was being greeted here in what I saw as being a condescending manner in regards to the Barcus Berry unit. If these technologists here are so advanced? As to freely put down this unit (by mere guessing at what it does)? Why haven't they created something that would eliminate the need for what the Barcus Berry at least attempts to counter?
Once you hear a thoughtfully adjusted BBE in a good quality system it will leave one with little doubt that it brings one much closer emotionally to what one experiences when listening at a good live performance. EQ and tone controls are not the same thing. Not even close. Its doing much more than simply effecting the frequency response.
I would not be quick call the engineers at BBE technological slouches. For, they saw a real problem in music reproduction and came up with a workable solution....first. That may be the problem here. No?
Well, I think some here brought the following on themselves. So, here goes.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"I heard better dynamics and cleaner sound ...restores a proper stereo imaging and separation ...15 - 20% increase in apparent openness and separation ...the results were excellent."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Stereophile[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"BBE's effect ...on old jazz and rock material was capable of transformations. No one but a pedant could call the result contrary to hi-fi principles. Without BBE processing, the sound was amorphous and two-dimensional ... with BBE, the energy leapt from the loudspeakers!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Audiophile[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"An extraordinary device. It is effective and unobtrusive giving better apparent highs and improving clarity ...its outstanding characteristic is its naturalness of sound ...had superb sound qualities."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Audio
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]". . . phenomenal separation of instruments . . . clarinets, oboes, bassoons, and other reeds are
refreshingly distinct in tone. The same goes for French horns and trombones, or violins and violas."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Recording[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"(BBE off) ...all the sparkle goes out of the sound. It's like coming back from Technicolor Oz to a drab black and white Kansas. What a difference!"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Popular Electronics [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Transients are enhanced, becoming more tactile, more present. Nuances in the high and low end are intensified;
there is an added fullness and clarity. Stereo-program becomes more three dimensional, more spacious.
Dense textures become penetrable, with a more palpable space around each discrete instrument. This is powerful
stuff. Maybe its voodoo?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Home Studio Recording
[/FONT]
Welcome to BBE Sound
I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make. The BBE is an effects box and you like the effect and it makes you happier with your system- nothing wrong with that. What is bothering some people is that you're making a fact-claim that the BBE isn't an effects box and doesn't EQ (even BBE doesn't make that claim!) and you're offering no technical data. And that diversion from the topic followed some pseudo-physics about electrical flow- which you unfortunately chose to put in front of a fellow with a PhD in the subject and several decades of industry experience.
Quotes from popular magazines, especially heavily elided quotes cut and pasted from advertising, don't really carry much weight in technical discussions. That's the cultural problem here- this isn't a hifi store and your audience is largely experienced and knowledgeable designers.
Quotes from popular magazines, especially heavily elided quotes cut and pasted from advertising, don't really carry much weight in technical discussions. That's the cultural problem here- this isn't a hifi store and your audience is largely experienced and knowledgeable designers.
The descriptions of the effect of the BBE are exactly what might be expected from a little equalisation (i.e. tone controls) and a little low-order distortion (mainly second) and a little bit of fashion/herd-following. It might even do some cross-mixing of the stereo channels to widen or narrow the image. As I said (largely in ignorance of such boxes) a subtle FX box. Nothing wrong with that, just don't pretend that vanilla ice cream is more pure than plain ice cream. I seem to be making this same point over and over again to people who like vanilla but for some reason seem unwilling to admit it.
Vanilla is GOOD. Embrace your vanillaphilia. Admit it. You will feel much better for it. Just don't insist that adding vanilla somehow removes nasty tastes - at best it masks them.
Vanilla is GOOD. Embrace your vanillaphilia. Admit it. You will feel much better for it. Just don't insist that adding vanilla somehow removes nasty tastes - at best it masks them.
I have not been denying it does EQ'ing. Its how it does it that I say is different. Entirely different. Some here are only giving me what appears to be negative guessing, not direct data from owning the component and testing it for themselves. For all those quotes I supplied (which were from test articles, not advertisements) so happen to agree with my findings. Do you realize how insulting it is to my intelligence to be told I am only enjoying a glorified tone control, or equalizer?
Its not my loss. Not unless I were a BBE salesman. Which I am not.
If you recall, I came here because of litz wire. I have seen two camps form around this configuration. Why? Apparently, some are not reaping the same benefits.
So be it.
I have nothing to gain out of this to argue. Now, if I liked arguing for arguments sake? Then maybe I would.
In the mean time? You will not find out for yourself. If someone here does, and is able to hear what I and others speak of? I'll let him explain it to you all.
Obviously you are only doing a superficial cursory reading of my posts. I am not saying anything like that. I can see why I am having this sort of resistance. For its not my words you are resisting.
I'll let you speak. I only wish you would read what was said.
Gene, I've told you exactly how it works, I've used them in anger, and stood right next to a tech who had one open on the bench whilst he tested it with an AP1. It really doesn't do anything magical.
Whilst it may seem that way, we are not attacking you. You like it, that's fair enough. Others may well too. I think it can do some useful stuff in the right application, but as a component in a home setup it adds distortion, and that's something that is generally not a good thing.
I guess you are a musician, rather than an engineer. If so, you might not realise that there are very tight constraints on what a filter can do. How it does it does not matter too much. It is what it does which is constrained. The constraints come from basic things like causality and the properties of complex numbers. That is the lovely thing about science and maths: it lets us make some quite general statements about what can and can't be done. (And please don't mention the old one about bees not being able to fly - that is simply misleading).GeneZ said:
No, not simple-minded. Just vanilla deniers. They often think people like me are simple-minded because I believe in things like causality, filter theory and trigonometry (the 'technological side'). I don't feel ignored. You have spent a lot of time arguing your case with me. I don't feel left out at all. I am very happy for people to enjoy their vanilla. The problem is, like all users, that they want to insist that I use it too.
Sorry for offending you. Would you like to explain to us how the device works? How it corrects phase problems without first measuring them? How it can change frequency response and phase response apparently independently? How it can do harmonic synthesis without using non-linear elements? In other words, how a device (presumably) constructed from normal physical objects can operate separately from the principles of physics and mathematics? You seem to be claiming more for the device than the makers do. They are merely vague about how it works, but don't claim anything unphysical about it.
What would be insulting to your intelligence is if we simply ignored you and left you to happily believe things which are untrue. I am not a postmodernist, so I can't assume that your truth and my truth are both valid although different and contradictory. Your preferences are of course as valid for you as my preferences are for me.
Hifi salesman. He is accustomed to a different audience; it may take a while for him to adapt.
To be fair, he's not insisting that you use one of those effects boxes. He's merely saying that he does, he likes it, he believes magical things about it that work perfectly well for people in hifi shops, and wants you to acknowledge that it is something other than a distortion and EQ box. He apparently believes (and is invited to correct me if I am mis-stating his position) that if you aren't impressed with the same effects box that he likes, there is something deficient about your hearing ability compared to his.
The facts are irrelevant. This niche in audio is about validating beliefs, not establishing facts. I truly don't see how saying that if he enjoys an effects box, that reflects on his intelligence, but again, it's about validation.
I rarely get involved in audio forums. Did not come here with an audience in mind.
Correct.
That I find ironic. You belittle the product, but I have not heard anything that other technicians have produce to do what the BBE claims to do, correctly. When you can? I will drop my magic box. Its all your fault.
Some like beer. Some like wine. Some like Cognac. Ever see a beer drinker trying to convince a Cognac imbiber that he must like beer? If he tried? The Cognac lover would whine.
I may be better off not having the break through a wall of preconceived suppositions that would hinder my freedom to enjoy what it does. I know that I love the difference, and that on any system I have had it installed, it always improved what I heard according to my tastes.
Someone at BBE shares my emotional desires and attributes when it comes to listening to music. And, you did not read those quotes correctly. Those quoted in those reviews (they were not advertisements) are experienced audio equipment evaluators. If they fell into the same opinion as I have? I do not feel unjustified in liking what I do.
I have sat at live performances that bored me to tears. Accurate is not always good. Improving the sound can be.
Hey,
add some inside knowledge of thermoplastic elastomers and that guy could sell a lot of high desired ''instruments''.
May I venture to guess that you speak of the lowly condom?
Would that not be a distortion device for a box to make beautiful music?
Correct me if I am wrong, please?
No, I didn't. I contradicted your description of its function. Those of us who are technically capable (this is a technical forum) and have experience with it also contradicted your description. BBE are quite honest that it's an effects box, that it EQs and adds distortion. It does what it advertises, which is more than I can say about a lot of high end audio products.
Perhaps you should file a law suite against Barcus Berry for false advertising.
You might settle out of court and get a free one.
The 482i Sonic Maximizer restores natural brilliance and clarity to an audio signal by the use of two integrated functions. First, it adjusts the phase relationships between the low, mid and high frequencies through adding progressively longer delay times to lower frequencies, creating a kind of mirror curve to neutralize the effect of loudspeaker phase distortion. Second, the Sonic Maximizer augments higher and lower frequencies as loudspeakers tend to be less efficient in their extreme treble and bass ranges. The end result is a dynamic, program-driven restoration which reveals more of the natural texture and detail in the sound without causing fatigue that is often associated with exciter effects, psychoacoustic processors or excessive use of equalizers.
http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/482i.aspx
That's bad?http://www.bbesound.com/products/sonic-maximizers/482i.aspx
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