Takes this thread up again because I think I have gained greater clarity and will try to describe where I am in understanding this issue at the moment.
However, i have still have no technical explanation for the issue I raised in the opening post.
Where I claim that there is an audible difference between cables and passive components in general.
I claim this only because experiments and blind tests I have participated in show this.
As an electronics technician, I am aware that it is controversial to think this in cases where there is no obvious measurable difference in the signal, as Ethan Winer shows in his Null test a test KSTR has improved further and I understand that KSTR can confirm Ethan Winer's result.
Is it surprising?, no not for the cable believers As long as the cable is sensibly designed and it is ensured that parasitics components do not affect the audio signal.
There are several examples of modifications that change the electrical conditions in the audio area minimally, but where the sound /timbre/tone changes significantly, unfortunately This can only be measured / heard with the ear and brain today
Replacement of the coupling capacitor and decoupling , crossover component, mount a well-sounding capacitor of very small value parallel over a much larger capacitor of value, typically an electrolyte to get better sound overall.
Bleeder resistors, a very small resistor in series with a cable (Bybee), mains cables, Tube rolling , cables and the ultimate copper vs silver.
The above will change The measurable output of a hifi device very little or not at all, same situation as in the null test.
Conclusion, something else must be the cause of the sound change or 1 million people or more have imagined that there are sound changes for more than 30 years where there is none.
Another popular way among cable skeptics to prove that there are no sound differences is To make a test setup with the test objects, record the results with an ADC .Upload wav files that everyone can judge, no hear audio differences. Neither on cables capacitors tomatoes bananas and mud.
The conclusion is again something else must be the cause of the sound change or 1 million people or more have imagined that there are sound changes for more than 30 years where there is none.
What is the same for the two test method? They compare or transmit the signal as voltage values.
Test participants play these voltage values on their own system, Ethan Winer compares them.
The answer to both situations is known from Ethan Winer's Null test, if these voltage values are identical for the test objects, no sound difference is heard.
On the other hand, there are indications that when the test object is inserted into our own sound chain, which by an AC signal is a large parallel circuit.
There are a good chances of hearing a sound difference if the test object differs in its material choice from that which sits in series or in parallel. important here is more of the same gives the same sound.
The difference from the situation with the recorded signal is that the test object now sits Physically in the hifi chain and changes the large (parallel circuit). And Currents run in the test object.
This also clarifies another big question: Do we as Hifi enthusiasts manipulate the sound to hit our own preferences.
The answer must be yes, something else is not possible, we will never get the source signal completely perfect to our ear with stereo.
Some Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts change the sound/timbre/tone By changing the source signal, a few examples, tubes, Nielson Pass, gramophone. It is measurable and there is no mystery except how can the tube and gramophone and single ended without feedback in many cases sound so lively and good.
Other Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts try to preserve the source signal but change the sound/timbre/tone via selection of components and materials by ear, It will typically not change the signal.
Here is a mystery ,how can it be done, How can there be a difference in the sound of copper and silver??? That's still the answer I'm looking for.
A third group of Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts are those who only bet on the best possible measurement zero errors and greatest measurable performs, they typically have the belief that everything can be measured and anything other than blind testing and measurement is not relevant, an example of them is the ASR people
Most Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts use all mentioned strategies more or less,
Something could indicate that an expensive HiFi cable in the recording will not be heard
During playback, only if the signal, the voltage values ??change will it be heard, examples of this could be different microphones.
That may be why Studio people often look down on HiFi enthusiasts a bit. And
Think they are a little crazy.
As a kind of conclusion to this long post, I would argue that a proof of some kind of material sound at the electronics level or atomic level would unite all Hifi enthusiasts. It would remove the fierce disagreement that exists between them at the moment. A disagreement that nothing good brings with it.
However, i have still have no technical explanation for the issue I raised in the opening post.
Where I claim that there is an audible difference between cables and passive components in general.
I claim this only because experiments and blind tests I have participated in show this.
As an electronics technician, I am aware that it is controversial to think this in cases where there is no obvious measurable difference in the signal, as Ethan Winer shows in his Null test a test KSTR has improved further and I understand that KSTR can confirm Ethan Winer's result.
Is it surprising?, no not for the cable believers As long as the cable is sensibly designed and it is ensured that parasitics components do not affect the audio signal.
There are several examples of modifications that change the electrical conditions in the audio area minimally, but where the sound /timbre/tone changes significantly, unfortunately This can only be measured / heard with the ear and brain today
Replacement of the coupling capacitor and decoupling , crossover component, mount a well-sounding capacitor of very small value parallel over a much larger capacitor of value, typically an electrolyte to get better sound overall.
Bleeder resistors, a very small resistor in series with a cable (Bybee), mains cables, Tube rolling , cables and the ultimate copper vs silver.
The above will change The measurable output of a hifi device very little or not at all, same situation as in the null test.
Conclusion, something else must be the cause of the sound change or 1 million people or more have imagined that there are sound changes for more than 30 years where there is none.
Another popular way among cable skeptics to prove that there are no sound differences is To make a test setup with the test objects, record the results with an ADC .Upload wav files that everyone can judge, no hear audio differences. Neither on cables capacitors tomatoes bananas and mud.
The conclusion is again something else must be the cause of the sound change or 1 million people or more have imagined that there are sound changes for more than 30 years where there is none.
What is the same for the two test method? They compare or transmit the signal as voltage values.
Test participants play these voltage values on their own system, Ethan Winer compares them.
The answer to both situations is known from Ethan Winer's Null test, if these voltage values are identical for the test objects, no sound difference is heard.
On the other hand, there are indications that when the test object is inserted into our own sound chain, which by an AC signal is a large parallel circuit.
There are a good chances of hearing a sound difference if the test object differs in its material choice from that which sits in series or in parallel. important here is more of the same gives the same sound.
The difference from the situation with the recorded signal is that the test object now sits Physically in the hifi chain and changes the large (parallel circuit). And Currents run in the test object.
This also clarifies another big question: Do we as Hifi enthusiasts manipulate the sound to hit our own preferences.
The answer must be yes, something else is not possible, we will never get the source signal completely perfect to our ear with stereo.
Some Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts change the sound/timbre/tone By changing the source signal, a few examples, tubes, Nielson Pass, gramophone. It is measurable and there is no mystery except how can the tube and gramophone and single ended without feedback in many cases sound so lively and good.
Other Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts try to preserve the source signal but change the sound/timbre/tone via selection of components and materials by ear, It will typically not change the signal.
Here is a mystery ,how can it be done, How can there be a difference in the sound of copper and silver??? That's still the answer I'm looking for.
A third group of Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts are those who only bet on the best possible measurement zero errors and greatest measurable performs, they typically have the belief that everything can be measured and anything other than blind testing and measurement is not relevant, an example of them is the ASR people
Most Diy / manufacturers/hifi enthusiasts use all mentioned strategies more or less,
Something could indicate that an expensive HiFi cable in the recording will not be heard
During playback, only if the signal, the voltage values ??change will it be heard, examples of this could be different microphones.
That may be why Studio people often look down on HiFi enthusiasts a bit. And
Think they are a little crazy.
As a kind of conclusion to this long post, I would argue that a proof of some kind of material sound at the electronics level or atomic level would unite all Hifi enthusiasts. It would remove the fierce disagreement that exists between them at the moment. A disagreement that nothing good brings with it.
Having a hard time understanding, why you believe, that after being banned from all fora in Denmark and Norway, and last banned from Audio Science Review, that your "nonsense" would be more acceptable here.
On all the other fora, you´ve been told the same.... it´s all total delusion. Only "babble", never any scientific evidence, only your own rules apply.
easy to see through, the emperor's new clothes one more time again.
On all the other fora, you´ve been told the same.... it´s all total delusion. Only "babble", never any scientific evidence, only your own rules apply.
easy to see through, the emperor's new clothes one more time again.
Last edited:
Hi thor2,
If you can really hear something, we can and do measure it.
If you do something that changes how a signal really does sound, you have changed the signal. Period.
My tests over 40 years of being in the audio business is that "expectation bias" is responsible for most, if not all, different sound that cannot be measured. This has been tested to death by many people over a long history.
What you have to accept is that today, our instrumentation has come a long way. We are now measuring things you cannot hear. I guess a group of people without sufficient quality of instrumentation are still in the age of monsters and magic.
-Chris
If you can really hear something, we can and do measure it.
If you do something that changes how a signal really does sound, you have changed the signal. Period.
My tests over 40 years of being in the audio business is that "expectation bias" is responsible for most, if not all, different sound that cannot be measured. This has been tested to death by many people over a long history.
What you have to accept is that today, our instrumentation has come a long way. We are now measuring things you cannot hear. I guess a group of people without sufficient quality of instrumentation are still in the age of monsters and magic.
-Chris
@ anatech Excuse me, but if it was as simple as you suggest, 25 pages would probably not have been written.
Recommend that you familiarize yourself with the problem position before answering.
Because I do not want to start from scratch explaining this.
But it can all be reduced to the question of whether there is an audible sound difference between copper and silver, I think so and many others , plus Ethan Winers Null test which says there is no sound difference between cables and other passive components because no change in the signal can be measured .
Myself and Many others believe there are audible sound differences on both components and cables
Recommend that you familiarize yourself with the problem position before answering.
Because I do not want to start from scratch explaining this.
But it can all be reduced to the question of whether there is an audible sound difference between copper and silver, I think so and many others , plus Ethan Winers Null test which says there is no sound difference between cables and other passive components because no change in the signal can be measured .
Myself and Many others believe there are audible sound differences on both components and cables
thor2,
ahem, audio has been my life. I think I am more than well acquainted with the subject, and I have heard everything you have posted many times before.
I have more than 45 years of professional experience in both audio electronics at the high end of the industry, recording studios and live productions. In addition, I am a Journeyman electronic test equipment calibration and repair technician as well. So when it comes to measurement uncertainties and capabilities, I pretty much know the subject cold.
I design audio equipment and improve existing designs, and have for decades. What do you do? Listen to it from an armchair?
Anyway, before insulting someone you don't know, try and do a little research on them. In addition, you might want to try and keep up to developments in the audio field, and especially when it comes to audio equipment and its capabilities.
You seem to be completely out of your depth here. You should maybe do some research. You don't have to publicly admit you are mistaken, or you can stick your head in the "I can hear better than can be measured" sand. Life moves on and you seem to have been left somewhere in the 1980s as a guess.
In the last couple years I have invested well over $50,000 in my own lab. Not counting audio equipment I have acquired. Can you put your money where your mouth is?
-Chris
ahem, audio has been my life. I think I am more than well acquainted with the subject, and I have heard everything you have posted many times before.
I have more than 45 years of professional experience in both audio electronics at the high end of the industry, recording studios and live productions. In addition, I am a Journeyman electronic test equipment calibration and repair technician as well. So when it comes to measurement uncertainties and capabilities, I pretty much know the subject cold.
I design audio equipment and improve existing designs, and have for decades. What do you do? Listen to it from an armchair?
Anyway, before insulting someone you don't know, try and do a little research on them. In addition, you might want to try and keep up to developments in the audio field, and especially when it comes to audio equipment and its capabilities.
You seem to be completely out of your depth here. You should maybe do some research. You don't have to publicly admit you are mistaken, or you can stick your head in the "I can hear better than can be measured" sand. Life moves on and you seem to have been left somewhere in the 1980s as a guess.
In the last couple years I have invested well over $50,000 in my own lab. Not counting audio equipment I have acquired. Can you put your money where your mouth is?
-Chris
"In art criticism, the minor detail, the trifle that escapes observation because apparently insignificant, is what makes it possible to distinguish the fake from the original, the copy from the authentic painting. Evidence, in other words, betrays the truth, diverts, distracts, simplifies by inviting the gaze to rest here and not there, not to make connections, not to question oneself."
So many tests have been done that prove that differences that cannot be measured cannot be heard either.
But some people have an excuse for anything and easily skip the shown evidence but at the same time can not prove anything themselves.
It is pure talk, imagination and imagination.
If they cannot come up with some evidence, they should keep quiet
But some people have an excuse for anything and easily skip the shown evidence but at the same time can not prove anything themselves.
It is pure talk, imagination and imagination.
If they cannot come up with some evidence, they should keep quiet
@anatech Why do you think I start my last long post like this:
"However, i have still have no technical explanation for the issue I raised in the opening post.
Where I claim that there is an audible difference between cables and passive components in general.
I claim this only because experiments and blind tests I have participated in show this.
As an electronics technician, I am aware that it is controversial to think this in cases where there is no obvious measurable difference in the signal, as Ethan Winer shows in his Null test, a test KSTR has improved further and I understand that KSTR can confirm Ethan Winer's result.
Is it surprising?, no not for the cable believers As long as the cable is sensibly designed and it is ensured that parasitics components do not affect the audio signal."
Should we really fight over who has the most expertise
I have six years of electronics education and have, among other things, worked at Bruel and Kjær Radiometer (RE measuring instruments) and Holfi.
And that's exactly why I can say there is a problem
Right it is a problem that is at least 30 years old and the only unresolved issue in audio
If Ethan Winer and KTRS are right, the conclusion is that there is no audible difference between passive components at all, you are allowed to have that opinion, as I said, I do not have it for good reasons.
Ps My post was not an invitation to **** on me, it was meant as a summary of where I am with this problem at the moment
"However, i have still have no technical explanation for the issue I raised in the opening post.
Where I claim that there is an audible difference between cables and passive components in general.
I claim this only because experiments and blind tests I have participated in show this.
As an electronics technician, I am aware that it is controversial to think this in cases where there is no obvious measurable difference in the signal, as Ethan Winer shows in his Null test, a test KSTR has improved further and I understand that KSTR can confirm Ethan Winer's result.
Is it surprising?, no not for the cable believers As long as the cable is sensibly designed and it is ensured that parasitics components do not affect the audio signal."
Should we really fight over who has the most expertise
I have six years of electronics education and have, among other things, worked at Bruel and Kjær Radiometer (RE measuring instruments) and Holfi.
And that's exactly why I can say there is a problem
Right it is a problem that is at least 30 years old and the only unresolved issue in audio
If Ethan Winer and KTRS are right, the conclusion is that there is no audible difference between passive components at all, you are allowed to have that opinion, as I said, I do not have it for good reasons.
Ps My post was not an invitation to **** on me, it was meant as a summary of where I am with this problem at the moment
Last edited:
Hi thor2,
There are differences in components and cable assemblies that are easily measured, so that is not in question. However, in a single wire (hookup wire) at normal audio impedance's, there is no difference between silver and copper wire. If you do hear something, it is your imagination.
Why would you write something? No idea, only you know. People spend enormous amounts of time and money chasing ideas only they or a select few can detect or know. They eventually die very bitter about it because science cannot support their views. There are people convinced they talk to dead people walking around bilking others of money. Still others who believe in the healing properties of crystals and chants. Your deal is that you can hear something that no one can measure. I am afraid that your view is not supported at all. In fact, there is overwhelming proof that your view is wrong.
Let`s look at this another way. If there was a difference between signals in silver or copper wire, industry would be the first to use it where it mattered. Space science would be the next with NASA close behind. The only single use silver wire has to audio is that it sells product. Yup, that`s all. I will tell you for certain that the test and measurement industry would be all over silver wire if it mattered. What they are all over is copper? Money is no object in that industry, so the fact we use copper says what to you.
-Chris
Highly insulting.
There are differences in components and cable assemblies that are easily measured, so that is not in question. However, in a single wire (hookup wire) at normal audio impedance's, there is no difference between silver and copper wire. If you do hear something, it is your imagination.
Why would you write something? No idea, only you know. People spend enormous amounts of time and money chasing ideas only they or a select few can detect or know. They eventually die very bitter about it because science cannot support their views. There are people convinced they talk to dead people walking around bilking others of money. Still others who believe in the healing properties of crystals and chants. Your deal is that you can hear something that no one can measure. I am afraid that your view is not supported at all. In fact, there is overwhelming proof that your view is wrong.
Let`s look at this another way. If there was a difference between signals in silver or copper wire, industry would be the first to use it where it mattered. Space science would be the next with NASA close behind. The only single use silver wire has to audio is that it sells product. Yup, that`s all. I will tell you for certain that the test and measurement industry would be all over silver wire if it mattered. What they are all over is copper? Money is no object in that industry, so the fact we use copper says what to you.
-Chris
Highly insulting
There are lots of measurable differences in cables and components which are due to parasitics components.
But that's not what the thread is about, it's about the signal transmission being affected by these differences.
Ethan Winer shows that it does not happen, on two very different cables, a cable for $ 700 and a $ 3
Do you agree with that ????.
I accept the electrical validity of the experiment.
But I do not accept the conclusion that there is no audible sound difference between the two cables.
Do you agree with Ethan Winer's conclusion that there is no audible difference in cables, which can be extended to all passive components ????
The thread is about that, Plus finding the electrical reason why sound differences that shouldn't be there can be heard on cables and passive components in blind testing.
Last edited:
You have just been a participant in a test on a Danish forum where you could´nt hear the difference between copper tape, 4 inch solder, capacitor for 7$, a capacitor for 2000$ in the signal path versus nothing in the signal path, because you could not see what was done and could only listen to 6 audio files.
But no matter what is presented by evidence you will continue that you can hear the difference.
When do you understand that it is your brain that is affected because you know that a change has been made and when you do not know, you hear no difference, simply because there is no difference. But you keep going on all the forums with all your claims without any evidence.
Is it a helping hand to some particular in the industry, which is why you keep making your claims that you can not prove in any way other than writing "I can hear it" 3000 times ?
Anything that has been of evidence against these claims you easily skip over and ignore it and continue your fantasy claims
But no matter what is presented by evidence you will continue that you can hear the difference.
When do you understand that it is your brain that is affected because you know that a change has been made and when you do not know, you hear no difference, simply because there is no difference. But you keep going on all the forums with all your claims without any evidence.
Is it a helping hand to some particular in the industry, which is why you keep making your claims that you can not prove in any way other than writing "I can hear it" 3000 times ?
Anything that has been of evidence against these claims you easily skip over and ignore it and continue your fantasy claims
Last edited:
Hi thor2
All I can say is ... enjoy your headache.
You are doing this to yourself. It is very clear that you will continue no matter what proof can be presented to you. The mind is a powerful thing, and in this case it is diverting you from the truth of the situation.
All my experience has agreed with the physics and measurements. Humans make terrible test instruments and we don't even hear the same thing all the time. You seem to have fallen victim to expectation bias - BIG TIME.
If there was anything to what you are saying at all, industry would be all over it. The only people who will agree with you are those who depend on these things to sell product or services. There are many hacks in my area that wreck stereo equipment by pulling out perfectly good wire and installing silver wire. Some are even against insulation!
-Chris
All I can say is ... enjoy your headache.
You are doing this to yourself. It is very clear that you will continue no matter what proof can be presented to you. The mind is a powerful thing, and in this case it is diverting you from the truth of the situation.
All my experience has agreed with the physics and measurements. Humans make terrible test instruments and we don't even hear the same thing all the time. You seem to have fallen victim to expectation bias - BIG TIME.
If there was anything to what you are saying at all, industry would be all over it. The only people who will agree with you are those who depend on these things to sell product or services. There are many hacks in my area that wreck stereo equipment by pulling out perfectly good wire and installing silver wire. Some are even against insulation!
-Chris
If measurements show that there s no measurable difference then it means that this audible difference is due to a variation in the listening apparatus characteristics, that is, the auditor s ears or brain.
Will end with analog_sa words . I must give him right, But it amazes me, for many must have observed sound differences in situations as I described in my last long post.
analog_sa quote "Myself, and no doubt many others, agree with everything you have shared in this thread but please realise: you are wasting your time here. The army of idle, clueless trolls will drain all your energy and drown your thread with noise. There is just no point persisting, other venues are a lot more suitable for such discussions."
analog_sa quote "Myself, and no doubt many others, agree with everything you have shared in this thread but please realise: you are wasting your time here. The army of idle, clueless trolls will drain all your energy and drown your thread with noise. There is just no point persisting, other venues are a lot more suitable for such discussions."
- Status
- Not open for further replies.