First part of Hifi construction is for me construction/diagram where I can ensure high precision via measurements and well known theory.
The second part is sound, which is mainly determined via the sound signature of components Including cables.
Here is no theory, no measurements, only experiences from many hours of listening.
My conclusion of listening is that specific materials have a sound signature, the purity of materials and Damping affect the sound, but do not remove the basic sound signature of the materials.
There is of course, a subset between the two concepts construction and sound signature
The audio signature works regardless of the component value, cable length, current, or voltage size.
The sound signature only seems to depend on the selected material, both conductive , insulating and composite materials.
My question, are there others with the same experience and are there measurements and theory that explain why copper and silver sound amazingly different in a transparent Hifi system.
Discussion is described here by Ethan Winer with his Null test, a test that doesn't fit with my experience. But I fully recognize the electrical argument he presents, and it gives me a headache.
The Null Tester - YouTube
The second part is sound, which is mainly determined via the sound signature of components Including cables.
Here is no theory, no measurements, only experiences from many hours of listening.
My conclusion of listening is that specific materials have a sound signature, the purity of materials and Damping affect the sound, but do not remove the basic sound signature of the materials.
There is of course, a subset between the two concepts construction and sound signature
The audio signature works regardless of the component value, cable length, current, or voltage size.
The sound signature only seems to depend on the selected material, both conductive , insulating and composite materials.
My question, are there others with the same experience and are there measurements and theory that explain why copper and silver sound amazingly different in a transparent Hifi system.
Discussion is described here by Ethan Winer with his Null test, a test that doesn't fit with my experience. But I fully recognize the electrical argument he presents, and it gives me a headache.
The Null Tester - YouTube
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"fi" in Hifi stands for fidelity ("Hi" stands for high). It's about the level of fidelity.
What experiment / test method was the conclusion made from? Keep in mind that there is a difference between your conclusion and the conclusion.
That is of course my conclusion.
Experiences come from, among other things.
Has proven with blind test the opposite of what Ethan Winer shows and says in his video.
By making the same amplifier with standard components and "audiophile" components.
By making the same cable with silver and copper as conductor, and much more.
In addition, I am an electronics technician, so I am pretty sure , something missing theory and measurements
Experiences come from, among other things.
Has proven with blind test the opposite of what Ethan Winer shows and says in his video.
By making the same amplifier with standard components and "audiophile" components.
By making the same cable with silver and copper as conductor, and much more.
In addition, I am an electronics technician, so I am pretty sure , something missing theory and measurements
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Which is called anecdote and it's good for one's own consumption. Unfortunately, it's not a substitute for evidence.
What kind of blind test, single, double, triple or something else, levels matched, unmatched, quick switched, slow switched or something else?
What's missing is the details of those tests.
>The second part is sound, which is mainly determined via the sound signature of components Including cables.
With the infinite thrash gone and going on within the electrical half of hifi, I have to wonder does everyone who's concerns are deep enough to investigate the infinitesimal, i.e. "cable lifters", really have their speakers sorted out to be as transparent to reveal such effects?
One would think if the drivers in your speakers VCs were wound with copper, that would negate going to a silver secondary winding in the OPT. Pour the gold into the speakers - and then work in precious materials backward up the chain to the source. (Which I'd assume has to be recorded through the precious materials too).
If the answer is "yes", then OK - I get it. I didnt think speakers were so easy -
With the infinite thrash gone and going on within the electrical half of hifi, I have to wonder does everyone who's concerns are deep enough to investigate the infinitesimal, i.e. "cable lifters", really have their speakers sorted out to be as transparent to reveal such effects?
One would think if the drivers in your speakers VCs were wound with copper, that would negate going to a silver secondary winding in the OPT. Pour the gold into the speakers - and then work in precious materials backward up the chain to the source. (Which I'd assume has to be recorded through the precious materials too).
If the answer is "yes", then OK - I get it. I didnt think speakers were so easy -
Correct, that is a hypothesis for discussion.
Singel blind test and Shoot Out test.
My phrase 'something missing theory and measurements' should be:.
There is a lack of theory and measurements that describe what the listener experiences.
Refers again to Ethan Winer's null test which tells the listener should not hear any differences on cables and this is simply not correct.
There is no way to measure what a listener experiences. You can take a group of people and ask them, that's what Toole does as an example.
Not sure I understand your post 100%.
But I suppose you wonder or do not believe that a component / cable can change the sound so much that it can be reproduced by even average speaker.
Overall, this is a sound change that involves the entire frequency range and all aspects of sound including perspective,resolution and micro macro details. Like hearing two different instruments.
It seems as if DSP has been used, it was also what many used as 'DSP' before DSP became widespread.
But as Ethan Winer shows in his zero test, nothing changes electrically, only component / cable sound signature changes. Sound signature which can only be experienced with ear and brain.
It is my experience that sound signature will be heard no matter where the component / cable is located in the hi-fi chain.
A voice coil, line speaker spdif or mains cable, component in power supply in the amplifying circuits, in digital technology, in speaker yes, everywhere regardless of the function of the component.
It is strange that a component / cable out of hundreds can raise the audible sound quality considerably in all aspects without it being measurable as Ethan Winer shows with his zero test.
If you insert a particularly well-sounding component into your hi-fi chain, it will not be twice as good because you inserting one more. The first counter and more of the same gives the same sound signature.
For me, everything points on 'material sound', where the explanation might rather be found in physics.
A tip you can put a particularly well-sounding resistor Shinco Audionote Vishay graphite with a small value 1 ohm or less in the transmitter end of a not very expensive cable, line or speaker and get a much better / different sound, yes, Bybee again, just far cheaper.
If you use bleeder resistors, you can also work with their sound quality.
Electrically affects the above minimally, but the sound signature from the resistor will be heard.
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It would be a better discussion if it's based on evidence.
It would be a better discussion if it's based on double blind test.
There are plenty of theory and measurements that describe what the listener experiences in subjective listening comparisons you cited, placebo effect just to name one.
You mean this is simply not correct in your opinion.
>It is strange that a component / cable out of hundreds can raise the audible sound quality considerably in all aspects without it being measurable.
Yes, that is indeed strange. It's one of the most hotly debated and never ending; i.e. has gone on for decades claims in audio. I'm well familiar with it.
Back before graphics existed, we had interactive forums on VT100 computer terminals, one of which was "Audio". One guy claimed he could hear the difference when a couple of right angle RCA adapters were inserted in his line level cables. They were from Radio Shack. The signal probably traversed 2" of metal. After being told he was crazy by many participant people, he still would not back down from what he claimed he heard. This was 30+ years ago...
I've learned from this to only put so much energy into such discussions. The 'strange' force may be true for all I know, but one thing that is for certain true is it's a non-productive effort to tell another person that they didnt hear, what they're saying they heard.
Instead, I should be working on my panel templates for my next loudspeaker cabinet experiment. Even if that one fails too.
Yes, that is indeed strange. It's one of the most hotly debated and never ending; i.e. has gone on for decades claims in audio. I'm well familiar with it.
Back before graphics existed, we had interactive forums on VT100 computer terminals, one of which was "Audio". One guy claimed he could hear the difference when a couple of right angle RCA adapters were inserted in his line level cables. They were from Radio Shack. The signal probably traversed 2" of metal. After being told he was crazy by many participant people, he still would not back down from what he claimed he heard. This was 30+ years ago...
I've learned from this to only put so much energy into such discussions. The 'strange' force may be true for all I know, but one thing that is for certain true is it's a non-productive effort to tell another person that they didnt hear, what they're saying they heard.
Instead, I should be working on my panel templates for my next loudspeaker cabinet experiment. Even if that one fails too.
Do not think I put up with this derogatory debate.
I set out to once again discuss a problem that has been around for at least 30 years, everyone who builds hi-fi use it conscious or unconscious.
I will now nevertheless try to pass on my experiences despite the clearly negative attitude.
Building hi-fi is like being a chef, you have a recipe / diagram, you buy ingredients, the dish is made and tasted in the end.
It could end up with McDonald's or gourmet food.
My experience is that the result depends on both the diagram and the materials the diagram is realized with.
Equivalent for a cable:
Those who claim that there is no sound difference on cables must at the same time acknowledge that there is no sound difference on passive components at all. In addition to the cable, there are connectors and sockets that have the same equivalent as the cable, just with an option for a variable resistance.
It is seen there is resistance a capacitor and a coil, the coil is mainly determined by the geometry,
The resistor R is the resistance of the conductor. resistor G is is the resistance of the insulation, will go towards infinity.
The capacitor C is determined the + - conductor which are plates in an elongated capacitor, the insulation between the conductors is dielectric.
Components in the drawing are undesirable in a cable but unavoidable, the ideal would be a cable without resistance capacity and induktion.
Unwanted components are found everywhere in a construction and are called parasitic component. Parasitic element (electrical networks) - Wikipedia
In all conductors as resistance, in all places where there is a voltage difference between two points there is a capacitor, induktion in the conductor itself and the distance relationship between them.
One argument is that these parasitic components are too small of value to affect the sound in the audible range and that is correct in most cases, it gives Ethan Winer Null test meaning. THD and noise from the cable itself are also irrelevant.
My hypothesis can only hold if the electrical value and electrical function are irrelevant to whether an audio signature is added, I mean the concept of audio signature meets that requirement.
A bleeder resistor has very little electrical influence yet its sound signature is applied to the output we hear, A very very small resistor in series with a cable will add its sound signature to the output we hear.
Bypass the powersupply not only has an electrical function but will also add audio signature depending on the choice of decoupling capacitor, yes even the packaging of the capacitor will matter.
A poorly sounding coupling capacitor can be enhanced with a well-sounding parallel capacitor of small electrical value, which will ensure minimal electrical influence, but the sound signature of the parallel capacitor will be clearly heard in output.
Audio signature works in the same way in the digital domain, sometimes more powerfully convincing, for example with the components around spdif and usb connection, network, etc.
It is not only me who has observed and uses sound signature proven, many manufacturers do the same Gryphon ,Spec ,PS audio, Audionote, Kondo ,DCA (Duelund)....., Many Diy people use it proven, to get better sound. And of course the cable/tweak industry.
Everyone uses it through their choice of components and materials.
They will create an overall sound signature whether the choice is based on price, technical data, random, or based on lifelike sound.
I set out to once again discuss a problem that has been around for at least 30 years, everyone who builds hi-fi use it conscious or unconscious.
I will now nevertheless try to pass on my experiences despite the clearly negative attitude.
Building hi-fi is like being a chef, you have a recipe / diagram, you buy ingredients, the dish is made and tasted in the end.
It could end up with McDonald's or gourmet food.
My experience is that the result depends on both the diagram and the materials the diagram is realized with.
Equivalent for a cable:
Those who claim that there is no sound difference on cables must at the same time acknowledge that there is no sound difference on passive components at all. In addition to the cable, there are connectors and sockets that have the same equivalent as the cable, just with an option for a variable resistance.
It is seen there is resistance a capacitor and a coil, the coil is mainly determined by the geometry,
The resistor R is the resistance of the conductor. resistor G is is the resistance of the insulation, will go towards infinity.
The capacitor C is determined the + - conductor which are plates in an elongated capacitor, the insulation between the conductors is dielectric.
Components in the drawing are undesirable in a cable but unavoidable, the ideal would be a cable without resistance capacity and induktion.
Unwanted components are found everywhere in a construction and are called parasitic component. Parasitic element (electrical networks) - Wikipedia
In all conductors as resistance, in all places where there is a voltage difference between two points there is a capacitor, induktion in the conductor itself and the distance relationship between them.
One argument is that these parasitic components are too small of value to affect the sound in the audible range and that is correct in most cases, it gives Ethan Winer Null test meaning. THD and noise from the cable itself are also irrelevant.
My hypothesis can only hold if the electrical value and electrical function are irrelevant to whether an audio signature is added, I mean the concept of audio signature meets that requirement.
A bleeder resistor has very little electrical influence yet its sound signature is applied to the output we hear, A very very small resistor in series with a cable will add its sound signature to the output we hear.
Bypass the powersupply not only has an electrical function but will also add audio signature depending on the choice of decoupling capacitor, yes even the packaging of the capacitor will matter.
A poorly sounding coupling capacitor can be enhanced with a well-sounding parallel capacitor of small electrical value, which will ensure minimal electrical influence, but the sound signature of the parallel capacitor will be clearly heard in output.
Audio signature works in the same way in the digital domain, sometimes more powerfully convincing, for example with the components around spdif and usb connection, network, etc.
It is not only me who has observed and uses sound signature proven, many manufacturers do the same Gryphon ,Spec ,PS audio, Audionote, Kondo ,DCA (Duelund)....., Many Diy people use it proven, to get better sound. And of course the cable/tweak industry.
Everyone uses it through their choice of components and materials.
They will create an overall sound signature whether the choice is based on price, technical data, random, or based on lifelike sound.
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Yes no theory or deficient theory and measurement. We often have only ear and brain.
On the other hand, the precision of the construction, here are lots of theory and measurements that can even go beyond what a human being can hear.
The whole problem can be framed in the sound difference between copper and silver.
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The problem you are facing is that you try to counter an evidence with opinion. What you need is a contradicting evidence but you don't have any. You wouldn't say comparing apple to orange will bring out a meaningful result, would you? What you are doing on this tread is equivalent to apple and orange comparison.
I'm not sure who made that claim but audible difference between audio cables do exist when one is malfunctioning or incompetently designed. In such case, you want to avoid buying / using them.
Beware of sales pitch. They are designed to make people want to buy their product.
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