Probably the problem is not exactly that a difference can not be measured but how and what measurements correlate to a specified perceived difference.
On an interview with Jan Didden, Nelson Pass said "The only magic involved takes place in the neural networks between our ears. What happens there is still poorly understood and varies between individuals." Dr. H. James Harrington , a pioneer in performance improvement, summarized that “Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can’t measure something, you can’t understand it. If you can’t understand it, you can’t control it. If you can’t control it, you can’t improve it.” However, it is not possible for anyone insensitive to the difference to correlate measured quantities with perception. Only those able to clearly perceive the difference like you can contribute to progress in understanding of this subject.
Be wary of experts who said "it can not be measured". Most of the time they are supporting some hidden agenda. The search path you currently lead is analogous to swimming in the sea of conflicting anecdotes, heavily polluted by vested interests and snake oil.
And as to a reproduction of "life" and "lifelike sound". It is an audiophile myth. Looking at measurements of sound pressure levels, dynamic range, etc and comparing that to what can be delivered on a recording medium or even further out, what will be delivered as a piece of recorded art and what you might be willing to do to yourself and your neighbours is so far apart it's ridiculous.
Of course measurement is a tool. It will be much more difficult to obtain progress of our understanding when available tools are being dismissed. However, complete understanding may exist only in Akashic record. We only have access to partial understanding in this plane of existence.
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No, an engineer for 50 years; I think you misread or misunderstand my post.
Perhaps this raises questions about your analytical skills.
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Necessary explanations have been given in first 2 pages of this thread. You are still going on and on as if those explanations just don't get through you.
You haven't cited any evidence of the cables you claimed as making audible difference. You've only cited anecdotes.
You haven't compared live vs recorded sound in a way that can produce useful results. Your ears weren't at the same spot as the recording microphone was and you didn't compare recorded sound within a few seconds to compensate our (human's) short aural memory span.
If you want to counter Ethan Winer's null test, make sure you have real evidence to base it on, not subjective impressions.
Probably the problem is not exactly that a difference can not be measured but how and what measurements correlate to a specified perceived difference.
On an interview with Jan Didden, Nelson Pass said "The only magic involved takes place in the neural networks between our ears. What happens there is still poorly understood and varies between individuals." Dr. H. James Harrington , a pioneer in performance improvement, summarized that “Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can’t measure something, you can’t understand it. If you can’t understand it, you can’t control it. If you can’t control it, you can’t improve it.” However, it is not possible for anyone insensitive to the difference to correlate measured quantities with perception. Only those able to clearly perceive the difference like you can contribute to progress in understanding of this subject.
Be wary of experts who said "it can not be measured". Most of the time they are supporting some hidden agenda. The search path you currently lead is analogous to swimming in the sea of conflicting anecdotes, heavily polluted by vested interests and snake oil.
I basically agree with this post, except that it should be an individual experience, it is not my experience.
As previously mentioned 'if hi-fi is really credible, everyone can hear it, and when hi-fi is bad, everyone can hear it.
The problem is when hi-fi is in the middle of these extremes, where most hi-fi is, then individuel taste suddenly becomes a deciding factor
I do not mean taste and hi-fi belong together. '
But agree that something in hi-fi seems like Salt & Pepper in cooking, insignificant change with powerful effect on us, difficult to measure, the small change does not harmonize with the perceived big difference.
The other extreme is to pour 'cream' (bass) in the dish, here the dish can usually fry a large amount, 10 15 db extra bass via DSP compared to treble is not uncommon.
A clear sign that the system does not have the right sound signature / basic sound balance.
Live music is and will be mid-tone dominated.
Steen Duelund expressed this 'salt and pepper' analogy as follows:
If you see a rose in a landfill, you will only see it, that is exact what the components with the best sound signature can do for the ear and brain.
The whole basic idea of hi-fi is precisely "that we should be brought to the place of recording".
That we from our living room should look into another room.
That alone is an objective quality measure, where different hi-fi systems perform very differently. But it is absolutely audible if it succeeds.
We also easily hear the difference between whether it is reproduced sound or it is reproduced sound that approaches live / reality.
A complete one to one recording playback situation is probably never achieved, it is an illusion, an illusion that can be really good or bad and everyone can hear the difference. Can you measure it ???.
Believes the absolute precision is important for this parameter, but it is also obvious that there is a subset between sound and precision, so both must be in place for optimal hi-fi In my opinion.
Difficult usually comes from lack of experience. When you start to make measurement, you will find that measured differences are not that small.
Other than speakers and room acoustics, determining the level of fidelity is easy for preamps, amps and cables. Just compare the input signal vs output signal.
So doing nothing to reduce driver distortion is hifi? By that understanding, any amplifier that counter driver distortion can not be considered hifi while for vinyl, recordings made without RIAA preemphasis are not considered hifi. Why should people accept driver distortion as is?
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Fancy Interconnects? How about a potato, or even mud?
Read post 357. Looks like mud, potatoes and bananas dont have a "sound signature" ( a BS audiophool term) so why would silver and copper? I dont believe YOU can hear the difference. Prove that and maybe this discussion will go somwhere. If you dont like the answers you get from some of the most experianced DIY forum members maybe you should go somewhere where they believe this nonsense.
Mooly found that potato on the left and banana on the right has most consistent image and focus. Problem is what kind of potato and banana is best? Probably some heat treatment is also advisable to enhance conductivity and flavor.Initial impressions... and there's not much in it
I agree a lot. When I started measuring and doing digital filter. I quickly found out that even small changes, that might be difficult to understand and measure - means more than you think.
There are a treshold to what can be heard under normal playback. But when you get more experience and measure in greater depth. Then it becomes clear that there is a reason for making many measurements and different measurements - to truly get an idea of what can be heard.
i feel like this is Pareto all again - meaning using 80% of the time to worry about 20%.
Maybe the 20% are even weighted at a total of 5% of the total experience - and then it's all a wash.
I know someone somewhere, might lie awake, thinking about the right order to place salt and peber on a table. But this...? Priorities i guess
Wasn't the point of this thread that only a chef knows the correct temperature for a potato or a banana?Mooly found that potato on the left and banana on the right has most consistent image and focus. Problem is what kind of potato and banana is best? Probably some heat treatment is also advisable to enhance conductivity and flavor.
I thought OP wants great audio so come asking how and what sauce and spices to use based on taste alone. I responded that it is not enough listening to experienced chefs about great tasting sauces and other stuff exotic or common, he needs to quantize his ingredients and results. Otherwise he would make gazzilion of mistakes and his progress would most likely be very poor or impeded.
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