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Analysis of speaker cables
Analysis of speaker cables
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Old 30th November 2020, 09:40 PM   #231
Hans Polak is online now Hans Polak  Netherlands
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Evenharmonics,
What is bothering you that results in never ending postings with a strong negative touch.
I would welcome a much more positive Evenharmonics.

Hans
 
Old 30th November 2020, 09:53 PM   #232
Evenharmonics is offline Evenharmonics  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Polak View Post
Evenharmonics,
What is bothering you that results in never ending postings with a strong negative touch.
I would welcome a much more positive Evenharmonics.
Hans, what's bothering you to mock me like that?

BTW, haven't you read my questions to you earlier? I'm sure if you had time to mock me, you would've had time to answer.
 
Old 30th November 2020, 09:54 PM   #233
syn08 is offline syn08  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
What is being lost in everybody's argument is this:

The transmission line impedance at audio is not the concern. It is the RF impedance, but not because of RF. Just energy storage at audio frequencies.

The energy that is stored in the cable is stored by inductance and capacitance.
The relationship between the two is:
LC = 1034 * DC for coax and striplines (field constrained cables), DC being the relative permittivity of the insulation.
Or
LC= 1034 * EDC for unconstrained cables such as zip, EDC being in the 5 to 10 range based on conductor spacing and geometry.
Or
LC = 1034 * mu(r) * epsilon (r), (btw, L in nH per foot, C in PF per foot).

The energy within a cable is minimum when the inductive storage equals the capacitive storage.. the energy stored in the cable at audio frequencies and DC is absolutely dependent on the load impedance.

Starting with equivalence of storage:

.5 LI^2 = .5 CV^2

Move C and I^2....get rid of both .5 factors..

L/C =(V^2)/(I^2)

Sqr both sides...

Sqr(L/C) = V/I...sqr(L/C) is the RF transmission line impedance, V/I is the load impedance.

So when a cable has the RF characteristic impedance as the load, the cable energy storage is minimized.

Jn

Everything is correct, according to any textbook for EE undergraduates. Only the causality to this topic is violated.
 
Old 30th November 2020, 10:23 PM   #234
454Casull is offline 454Casull  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
What is being lost in everybody's argument is this:

The transmission line impedance at audio is not the concern. It is the RF impedance, but not because of RF. Just energy storage at audio frequencies.

The energy that is stored in the cable is stored by inductance and capacitance.
The relationship between the two is:
LC = 1034 * DC for coax and striplines (field constrained cables), DC being the relative permittivity of the insulation.
Or
LC= 1034 * EDC for unconstrained cables such as zip, EDC being in the 5 to 10 range based on conductor spacing and geometry.
Or
LC = 1034 * mu(r) * epsilon (r), (btw, L in nH per foot, C in PF per foot).

The energy within a cable is minimum when the inductive storage equals the capacitive storage.. the energy stored in the cable at audio frequencies and DC is absolutely dependent on the load impedance.

Starting with equivalence of storage:

.5 LI^2 = .5 CV^2

Move C and I^2....get rid of both .5 factors..

L/C =(V^2)/(I^2)

Sqr both sides...

Sqr(L/C) = V/I...sqr(L/C) is the RF transmission line impedance, V/I is the load impedance.

So when a cable has the RF characteristic impedance as the load, the cable energy storage is minimized.

Jn
But what does this mean for someone listening to the sound coming from the speakers?
 
Old 30th November 2020, 10:28 PM   #235
Evenharmonics is offline Evenharmonics  United States
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He's not interested in discussing such thing, as he expressed to me before.

Last edited by Evenharmonics; 30th November 2020 at 10:30 PM.
 
Old 30th November 2020, 10:58 PM   #236
jneutron is offline jneutron  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 454Casull View Post
But what does this mean for someone listening to the sound coming from the speakers?
Simple. The delay is dependent on the ratio between the cable RF impedance and the driver impedance. Since the driver impedance can swing wildly even with just a sine sweep, the delay will also. If the variation rises to the 2 to 10 uSec swing, it might be audible w/r to imaging. Depends of course on what frequencies, as our imaging ITD sensitivity is very frequency dependent.

As I posted earlier, do the one channel two zip centering test, first with both zips intact then split one. If you do not hear any assymetry, there is nothing to "see", listen to some music and enjoy a beverage.

Jn
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Old 30th November 2020, 11:28 PM   #237
Speedskater is offline Speedskater  United States
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Luckily ITD ( Interaural Time Difference ) is about the lateral movement of a single mid-frequency sound. So no frequency change, no cable delay change.
I would think that many crossovers introduce much greater frequency related time differences.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Also Velocity of Propagation changes a whole lot at audio frequencies in a reasonable cable.
5,000,000 m/s @ 20HZ
125,000,000 m/s @ 20kHz
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Last edited by Speedskater; 30th November 2020 at 11:36 PM.
 
Old 30th November 2020, 11:58 PM   #238
jneutron is offline jneutron  United States
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The test I mention does not care about the crossover, it first checks that both speakers are identical enough that the image in it's entirety is centered.
If splitting one zip changes that, next test. If nothing changes, move along nothing to see here.

The beauty of the test is it uses music, and if a motional dependent impedance shift causes a variation in ITD that is audible, this test will see it.

Also, it uses a center reference the listener can use to gauge image shift. The frequencies which are not ITD referenced will remain centered, the listener can discern more readily shifts of some content relative to others..

As to prop velocity, that is of no use within the discussion, just a red herring.

Jn
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Old 1st December 2020, 03:46 AM   #239
454Casull is offline 454Casull  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
Simple. The delay is dependent on the ratio between the cable RF impedance and the driver impedance. Since the driver impedance can swing wildly even with just a sine sweep, the delay will also. If the variation rises to the 2 to 10 uSec swing, it might be audible w/r to imaging. Depends of course on what frequencies, as our imaging ITD sensitivity is very frequency dependent.

As I posted earlier, do the one channel two zip centering test, first with both zips intact then split one. If you do not hear any assymetry, there is nothing to "see", listen to some music and enjoy a beverage.

Jn
Can you provide a calculation of the delay based on a typical setup?

Also, why do you think a 10 us "delay" would be audible when you have phase wraps with LR4 crossovers that some people can't hear, and sometimes well over 30 ms group delay in the bass region that are generally inaudible?
 
Old 1st December 2020, 04:48 AM   #240
JMFahey is online now JMFahey  Argentina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsrsb View Post
The series "R" component is significant at audio frequencies, so the only way to keep to a fixed Z = 8 Ohms impedance is to intentionally raise G by adding parallel resistors along the cable.
Those parallel resistors taking the form of more copper, as in making cable thicker.
No news there.
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