The reason is I goofed
I did not maximise the gain structure and left at least 10 dB if not 20 dB of SNR on the table, hence the hum and hiss. Since I was comparing headphones, and not a critical recording, I decided not to redo the recordings and better luck next time I also should have mentioned, not very portable either.The Zoom H3-VR is very nice! Turn the limiter off and I am not sure if it has any automatic gain controls (AGC) or not, but that is the foil for most of these units. Some have it, some don't, and some you can't turn off, which ruins the recording. It appears the H3-VR does not have AGC, but I can't be sure. The unit has good specs and if the recording chain has no AGC, you should be set. Will be interesting to compare the binaural recording with the ambisonics mode.
As Pano says, getting the right balance of direct versus reverberate sound is the art of recording. As you know, it takes a bit of practice and usually you may find you need to be closer to the source that normal to get more direct sound. It is hard to judge while wearing headphones too, so you may want to "bracket" a few recordings by moving closer. But that may take you out of the "listening position."
Sounds like you are on the good path! Good luck!
PS. Edit saw your latest post. Gain structure with those Soundprofessional mics is important. Note the newer version have 17dB less noise (hiss), 10dB more sensitivity and 10dB higher max SPL than the standard model. Not sure which model you have. Also note the newer model has a max SPL of 115dB with normal "plug-in-power" and 130dB with their power modules. In my case, I am using these: USB Microphone, Binaural microphone, stereo Microphone, Wireless Microphone, Digital Recorder, Custom Cables and more at Rock Bottom Prices from The Sound Professionals - Great deals on Microphone, Preamplifier, Digital Recorder, Cable and more!
The reason is I goofed
Ahhhh. Understood. It happens. That kind of thing is exactly why I try to limit as many variables as I can. I know me; I tend to get ahead of myself and then wind up costing myself more time later when I realize my mistake. lol
From what I could tell there is indeed no AGC on the H3. There’s not many reviews for this thing, unfortunately. I mean, I can find some… just not any that really tell me what I need to know. So that’s why I just decided to order it and hopefully it will do what I want. I like that it’s simple to set up and is repeatable. I’ll report back once I get some time to mess with it.
These are the exact ones I have. Great for walking around. But not so hot for recording stereo at louder volumes off the “plug-in power”. USB Microphone, Binaural microphone, stereo Microphone, Wireless Microphone, Digital Recorder, Custom Cables and more at Rock Bottom Prices from The Sound Professionals - Great deals on Microphone, Preamplifier, Digital Recorder, Cable and more!
The ones you have definitely look better for my specific use. So, I’ll keep them on deck in case this Zoom doesn’t work out.
I understand what you guys are saying. And I absolutely agree that if I were doing it to compare loudspeakers solely then I’d really need to do my best to take the room out of the equation. Either by getting nearfield (which would be tough for array type speakers) or literally get outside of the room. However, and I think your Kef vs JBL experiment shows this exact thing, I personally think it’s useful to show the room’s influence. If not for the room, your Kef vs JBL results would have been quite different because the room + the wide polar pattern of the LS50’s resulted in more ambiance. The JBL’s interacted less with the room and you got more of the direct sound. Ultimately, it’s about what you’re trying to show. If I had/have the means to provide both then I will but I personally am more interested in comparing results in a typical/hi-fi room type setup because I think that’s where people will be positioned as potential buyers of XYZ product. No matter what I do I will, at the very least, provide in-room measurements. My goal is to provide quasi-anechoic measurements on/off axis and then supplement that with the in-room results & binaural recordings.
Again, I don’t disagree with either of you at all. Just providing my goal and perspective relative to that goal.
Thanks again for your help!
looking forward to hearing your results!
The Zooms have both AGC, limiter and HP filter. By default they are turned off, but can be switched on via menu. Not sure about the H3-VR, it's kinda special.
Mitch is right on the money, you often have to move the mic close to avoid room acoustics and that puts you out of the listening spot. Hearing what the H-VR can do with its matrix will be fun. Maybe it can imitate a tight mic pattern.
Mitch is right on the money, you often have to move the mic close to avoid room acoustics and that puts you out of the listening spot. Hearing what the H-VR can do with its matrix will be fun. Maybe it can imitate a tight mic pattern.
Agreed, I too think it can be useful to show the room speaker interaction. When it comes to recording live then playing that through speakers as a comparison, how about having the live source at the same position as the speaker, close miked. Record that and simultaneously do a binaural recording. Then replay the close miked recording through the speakers and do a binaural recording of that. Then compare the two binaural recordings, does that make sense? Or is it unnecessarily complicated?
You'll hear the room plenty. The challenge is not hearing the room thru the mics while not putting the mics very close to the speakers. What's hard is getting a balance on the microphones that matches what your ears hear in the room.
Fortunately if you have a room and some speakers, you can practice.
Fortunately if you have a room and some speakers, you can practice.
I've been tinkering with the Zoom H3 in my car. I use a DSP to get time alignment and levels set so the car stereo has a pretty good left/center/right setup. I figure if the H3 in binaural mode can replicate what my car does (in such a reflective environment) then it would be a viable candidate.
I'm still messing with determining the best balance for mic sensitivity and system output so I can get the volume I want. I'm NOT done vetting this thing but I did want to share the last recording I came up with before calling it a night (as you can hear, it was time for supper, LOL).
200109_012.WAV - Google Drive
I'm still messing with determining the best balance for mic sensitivity and system output so I can get the volume I want. I'm NOT done vetting this thing but I did want to share the last recording I came up with before calling it a night (as you can hear, it was time for supper, LOL).
200109_012.WAV - Google Drive
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I heard the left and right channel announce but didn't catch the other."your face is a channel".
I'm fairly happy with the recording.
I will test this device out in my home theater tomorrow, where I expect the difference between left and right to be more apparent (in a car, the soundstage is limited in width by the physical dimensions of the car; you can't get wider than about 15 degrees on the left and the right side is as wide as 45 degrees so it's a very asymmetrical stage, even with using time alignment and level matching to help center up the vocalist between the two sides).
I'm fairly happy with the recording.
I will test this device out in my home theater tomorrow, where I expect the difference between left and right to be more apparent (in a car, the soundstage is limited in width by the physical dimensions of the car; you can't get wider than about 15 degrees on the left and the right side is as wide as 45 degrees so it's a very asymmetrical stage, even with using time alignment and level matching to help center up the vocalist between the two sides).
Just to be clear, this is the product I am using in the above wav file:
https://amzn.to/35DzPF6
https://amzn.to/35DzPF6
And I’ll say this... I was happy with the in-car results but I’m starting to think this thing may have too much self-noise to be useful. I have to bump the mic gain up a good bit to get it to match the level I perceive the volume to be and by doing so it introduces a lot of floor noise which I’m not happy about. I could simply turn the mic gain to zero but then I have to increase the system volume to a level that is much higher to my ears than it is to the mic.
So, I’m back to looking at the stuff from sound professionals linked earlier.
I’ll tinker around with it a little bit more but at this very moment I’m not sold on it and may wind up sending it back.
So, I’m back to looking at the stuff from sound professionals linked earlier.
I’ll tinker around with it a little bit more but at this very moment I’m not sold on it and may wind up sending it back.
Sounds good! Very clear like Pano says. LOL! I love the 1 minute to supper
Gain matching to get the best SNR is hard. I see you have explored that a bit and concerned about the noise. If you go the Sound Professionals route, getting a portable mic pre with low enough self noise may be an issue and may not be an improvement over what you have. It's tricky...
Also, do you have a way of measuring dynamic range? I.e. like in JRiver or other tools. You could check the DR on the song in JRiver, then make a recording of the song in your car, bring it back and import into JRiver and run audio analysis and compare DR. Based on what I heard, it should be close. Also will give you some comparison of mic sensitivity and output levels so you can find the workable range...
Gain matching to get the best SNR is hard. I see you have explored that a bit and concerned about the noise. If you go the Sound Professionals route, getting a portable mic pre with low enough self noise may be an issue and may not be an improvement over what you have. It's tricky...
Also, do you have a way of measuring dynamic range? I.e. like in JRiver or other tools. You could check the DR on the song in JRiver, then make a recording of the song in your car, bring it back and import into JRiver and run audio analysis and compare DR. Based on what I heard, it should be close. Also will give you some comparison of mic sensitivity and output levels so you can find the workable range...
That 1 minute supper warning scares me whenever I hear it and I know it’s coming. LOL.
Yes, matching gain to get real perceived volume without floor noise is a pain. I’m both relieved and saddened to learn this may be no better with the items you’re using. I may simply have to deal with recording volume being at a level lower than the actual system output but raise the system volume to counteract that. I’ll dig around for some other options and see if anything hits the mark without breaking the bank. But I’m not too hopeful.
And, yes, I do have the means to compare dynamic range. That’s a good idea. I’ll do that.
Thanks for the information regarding the noise and level matching in your setup. That makes me feel less aggravated about the setup I’m using.
Yes, matching gain to get real perceived volume without floor noise is a pain. I’m both relieved and saddened to learn this may be no better with the items you’re using. I may simply have to deal with recording volume being at a level lower than the actual system output but raise the system volume to counteract that. I’ll dig around for some other options and see if anything hits the mark without breaking the bank. But I’m not too hopeful.
And, yes, I do have the means to compare dynamic range. That’s a good idea. I’ll do that.
Thanks for the information regarding the noise and level matching in your setup. That makes me feel less aggravated about the setup I’m using.
I don't understand what you mean by matching levels. Are you talking about playing back the file you just recorded and having it at the same level? I don't see why that would be necessary. I'd just ensure good headroom, then normalize the file to 0dB on the peaks. If you play that back off the same source, it ought to be close.
You can live monitor what the mic records. In order for me to record the system at the same level it’s actually playing I have to increase the mic gain quite a bit.
You mentioned post processing... this stuff is new to me... I just assumed I should be able to record the same volume and not have to do anything with the file to get the level right. I’m assuming I am wrong based on your reply. So is it normal then to use software (like audacity or the like) to increase the gain? If so... perfect. I can do that. At 0 mic gain I can play the system very loudly without any clipping or distortion; it’s just too quiet on the playback and not at all representative volume wise of what it sounds like to my ears. So I could just make up for that via software it sounds like.
Sorry for the nooB perspective. But admittedly this is a new thing for me.
You mentioned post processing... this stuff is new to me... I just assumed I should be able to record the same volume and not have to do anything with the file to get the level right. I’m assuming I am wrong based on your reply. So is it normal then to use software (like audacity or the like) to increase the gain? If so... perfect. I can do that. At 0 mic gain I can play the system very loudly without any clipping or distortion; it’s just too quiet on the playback and not at all representative volume wise of what it sounds like to my ears. So I could just make up for that via software it sounds like.
Sorry for the nooB perspective. But admittedly this is a new thing for me.
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Yes, just be sure that you are neither clipping nor down in the dirt when you record. -12dB peaks are a typical spot. You might be able to sneak it up some because you're doing music that has already been leveled and peak controlled. Live music is much less predicable.
Take that file and normalize it to 0dB (or -1dB) in something like audacity or GoldWave.
Take that file and normalize it to 0dB (or -1dB) in something like audacity or GoldWave.
Great.
Your post was a lightbulb for me. I was just thinking that post processing the audio would be a bad thing. But thinking about it, I don’t see why it would be.
I’ll try some post processing and see how it works out. Ideally I won’t have to raise the mic gain at all. And I can have the same target SPL from my system (using pink noise or a test tone) so all future tests are the same and I would amplify the tracks in Audacity by the same level so that each file I publish was derived and produced the same way.
Your post was a lightbulb for me. I was just thinking that post processing the audio would be a bad thing. But thinking about it, I don’t see why it would be.
I’ll try some post processing and see how it works out. Ideally I won’t have to raise the mic gain at all. And I can have the same target SPL from my system (using pink noise or a test tone) so all future tests are the same and I would amplify the tracks in Audacity by the same level so that each file I publish was derived and produced the same way.
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