Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Can you hear a difference between 2 solid state preamps?
Can you hear a difference between 2 solid state preamps?
Can you hear a difference between 2 solid state preamps? Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
View Poll Results: Can you hear a difference between the two test files
I can hear a difference, but have no ABX result 12 50.00%
I cannot hear a difference and have no ABX result 6 25.00%
I can hear a difference and have an ABX result 4 16.67%
I cannot hear a difference and have an ABX result 2 8.33%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th November 2019, 08:18 PM   #291
indra1 is online now indra1  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bogor
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
I was doing tests with mono on my poor visitors intentionally and regularly, ...
That suddenly reminds me of the late Sakuma-san.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2019, 08:22 PM   #292
mmerrill99 is online now mmerrill99
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
You only do not try and you are creating faked reality -

Can you hear a difference between 2 solid state preamps?
11/16 is not so bad

I think no one else posted his result in this thread, you not excluded.
OK, apologies
It was this post I seemed to remember
Quote:
In a sighted test, I have a feeling that I can quite clearly tell the difference in sound of both preamps. When doing ABX test, I get permanently results between 3/8 and 5/8, so just random results. I will try harder .
In your linked post to ABX results you don't show 11/16 - it's incorrect to combine the results of two separate runs of tests like this. I believe 20 ABX trials is consider minimum in one straight run for statistical significance - maybe you could not achieve a 'good' run of 20 trials given this requirement for "my best concentration on sound:" as you stated? For a confidence level of 95% with a confidence interval of 10 you would need to get 14 out of 16 correct - for a 99% confidence level 15 out of 16. With 20 trials 95% is 17 out of 20 & 99% is 18 out of 20

Do you think others would be able to achieve 95% or 99% confidence level in Foobar ABX?

I'm just asking this question in relation to Markw4 post reporting this comment he came across "Unless this is early 90's, one properly functioning DAC sounding better than another properly functioning DAC has been debunked by level matched double blind listening tests."

Do you still clearly hear a clarity to one preamp that is obvious? If so why isn't a success rate of 99% in ABX tests anticipated?

Last edited by mmerrill99; 19th November 2019 at 08:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2019, 10:24 AM   #293
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Max Headroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Australia, near to the beach, natural ambient sounds mostly.
Pavel, I have in the last few days totally altered my power feed/power filtering arrangements including screened isolation transformer power feed to the laptop music source and this has quite 'transformed' this system and taken it to a whole new level.
I will take another listen to your files in the next few days and let you know what I find.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2019, 11:50 AM   #294
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Thank you Dan, sounds interesting!
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2019, 03:20 PM   #295
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Max Headroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Australia, near to the beach, natural ambient sounds mostly.
I'm having to learn/understand a whole new system sound, bigger, brighter, clearer, louder and more powerful sounding than what I had which was already darn good by any standards.
This is repeat of an old experiment and done better, I should have built this new power box ages ago, I will try to find time to listen tomorrow.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2019, 11:34 AM   #296
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
People clearly have no problem believing in audible differences when they hear the sonic details for themselves. Disbelief is reserved for when other people report hearing the exact same type of things. That's when all the arguments about why it must be impossible start coming out.

Oh, well. Nobody is claiming that humans are not hypocrites.
Obviously.

But still quite amazing to watch it in real time; it seems to be a variation of the old:

it is impossible
ok, can be in theory but not in practice
ok, can be in practice and we always said so......

@billshurv
Quote:
Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Can't speak for others, but in my case it was an interesting experiment that needs more (personal) investigation. I think it has indicated that I listen for different things than others so possibly would benefit from some training in that area, which opens up a larger can of fresh worms.

But the fact we have files for listening and measurements is a refreshing change from someone glomming something in then claiming veils are lifted and windows onto the sound cleaned.
Sure, but isn't that a minor element compared to the before stated (near) impossiblity of an audible difference in case of measured numbers well below the established hearing thresholds in the audio band?

Interestingly the bandwidth was the main difference also between the two ciruits in our (hidden) preamplifier double blind test.

I'd say quite similar to the case of audible differences between opamps; we all can surely remember that audiophiles were ridiculed for years when rolling opamps, but all of a sudden it is taken for granted that a newer opamp with better specs leads to audible differences and is preferable.

Suprisingly audiophiles were still mocked in case they did not choose/prefer one of these newer/better opamps.

Further I'm sure we can agree that more refined sonical descriptions (beside any lifted veils) did not get more appreciation and to have some downloadable files for comparisions IMO didn't change that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2019, 11:52 AM   #297
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
billshurv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Can you hear a difference between 2 solid state preamps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post
all of a sudden it is taken for granted that a newer opamp with better specs leads to audible differences and is preferable..

That's an enourmous leap given the sample size here. Nothing can be taken from this test as far as I am concerned. I did the test unblinded so my results are totally void. But I am interested to know if I can pick the files out with some form of blinding. But I am just not setup for that sort of test at the moment.


I should also re-iterate that I accept the bias of pride of ownership so I would personally build such a preamp with the top opamps because

a) I can
b) I would know that I had put in the best I could afford and use that bias to my advantage.



My biggest intrigue though is the fleeting glimpses of evidence that people do listen in very different ways. It's not a suprise, but this is the first time it has appeared in the open for me personally.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2019, 12:19 PM   #298
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
<snip>
11/16 is not so bad

<snip>
If you had only done these two tests on the preamps I'd agree, but according to your description you've had a few (or many?) more done in the past.

@mmerrill99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmerrill99 View Post
<snip>

In your linked post to ABX results you don't show 11/16 - it's incorrect to combine the results of two separate runs of tests like this.
No, generally it is correct to combine two seperate runs, provided every run itself is objective, reliable and valid.
Independence can be questionable so sometimes it is better to choose another statistical test that does not rely on the independence of trials.

Quote:
I believe 20 ABX trials is consider minimum in one straight run for statistical significance .....
Of course it depends on the significance level (SL) that one wants to achieve, but for the usual SL = 0.05 even 5 trials are sufficient (actually testing on 0.032 niveau). SL is only considering alpha-errors so beta-errors are neglected, but if we take the beta-errors into account even 20 trials don't help much (but that depends on the listeners ability to detect differences if existing).

Quote:
- maybe you could not achieve a 'good' run of 20 trials given this requirement for "my best concentration on sound:" as you stated? For a confidence level of 95% with a confidence interval of 10 you would need to get 14 out of 16 correct - for a 99% confidence level 15 out of 16. With 20 trials 95% is 17 out of 20 & 99% is 18 out of 20 <snip>
Not sure what the confidence interval length of 10 means, as usually the confidence interval would be an interval for the p-value (as opposed to the assumed p=0.5 under the null hypothesis)
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2019, 04:39 PM   #299
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
diyAudio Member
 
scottjoplin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Penrhyndeudraeth
People definitely focus differently during critical listening sessions, my view that it can become an affliction is confirmed in my mind, and the variation of what was and wasn't heard and individual preferences means to me that a published review is probably no different. What has made this thread interesting for me is that it seems that the transfer function of a perfectly well behaved amplifier is audible and very high accuracy is most likely something to be sought after. The fact that measurements and files were provided (how often does that happen?) for us to listen to, comment on and discuss has, I think, been useful to those who participated positively. Thank you Pavel.

Last edited by scottjoplin; 21st November 2019 at 04:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2019, 05:05 PM   #300
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post
If you had only done these two tests on the preamps I'd agree, but according to your description you've had a few (or many?) more done in the past.
Yes, until I was able to find a part of the sample recording that allowed for me to tell the difference quite reliably. Then, I got similar results as posted, repeatedly, but always limited to 8 trials, as I could not keep concentration to make 16 trials in a row.
So, first trials were something like initial preparations. I agree that if I did not have this training time, I would not be able to tell the difference as I did later. It is not so easy in ABX.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Can you hear a difference between 2 solid state preamps?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Germanium in the World of solid state (preamps) Bojan Hajdinjak Solid State 115 11th May 2015 06:05 PM
Preamps for the great solid state power amps audiostar Solid State 2 4th September 2012 07:41 PM
The Solid State Wiki - Your solid state reference guide Jason Solid State 0 25th June 2002 06:26 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:51 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 13.64%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki