I'm busy designing some PCBs based on one of Rod Elliot's projects (see the thread here).
I'm going to be using a prototyping house (JLCPCB, PCBgogo or the like) to produce the boards, and as many here will know the minimum order is often 5 or 10 boards. I need a grand total of 2 boards
In the case where a design is based on a community supplied schematic like this, what is the etiquette around selling the remaining boards to fellow DIYers? Either selling them at cost, at a small profit, or enough to cover "cost plus hassle"?
Are there some general rules of thumb - perhaps contacting the original designer in each case? Any and all experience, gut feelings and professional feedback welcome.
(Disclaimer: My chief concern is one of paying respect to people's designs and being grateful of the material provided by the community and other DIY educators. It is not at all my intention to run some profitable business stealing other people's designs. This is a hobby I'm just wondering whether or not I can pass the remaining 8 or so PCBs on, and be compensated for the cost of the boards and perhaps a little of my time. If this is a huge community no-no, I will of course be giving the boards away.)
- I would say that 95% of my schematic is the same as the one provided on Elliot's website. I've changed some capacitor values for bypassing, added a couple of extra caps and switched to component packages that suit me better.
- The PCB layout is entirely my own. I notice they superficially look similar, but obviously without access to Elliot's PCB I had to use preexisting knowledge to route the traces intelligently and lay out the components in (hopefully) optimum positions. Here in partciular I have some "pet packages" - resistor sizes and brands, cap diameters, input and output connectors and a layout to suit my particular case design. Let's say the PCB layout is 80% my own, given that Elliot's photo has the components in similar approximate positions, with some exceptions.
I'm going to be using a prototyping house (JLCPCB, PCBgogo or the like) to produce the boards, and as many here will know the minimum order is often 5 or 10 boards. I need a grand total of 2 boards
In the case where a design is based on a community supplied schematic like this, what is the etiquette around selling the remaining boards to fellow DIYers? Either selling them at cost, at a small profit, or enough to cover "cost plus hassle"?
Are there some general rules of thumb - perhaps contacting the original designer in each case? Any and all experience, gut feelings and professional feedback welcome.
(Disclaimer: My chief concern is one of paying respect to people's designs and being grateful of the material provided by the community and other DIY educators. It is not at all my intention to run some profitable business stealing other people's designs. This is a hobby
I'm just wondering whether or not I can pass the remaining 8 or so PCBs on, and be compensated for the cost of the boards and perhaps a little of my time. If this is a huge community no-no, I will of course be giving the boards away.)
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I've offered 3 PCB's to DIYrs based on other's designs - SY's "Impasse", "His Masters Noise" and Dr. Marsh's excellent headphone amplifier -- all at cost around , i.e. $3 each. The buyer pays shipping and handling, usually $6.65 in the US and $13 ROW.
The boards I have designed myself usually go for $12 to $15 with the same charges for shipping.
No one has complained. The only issue is that some newbies ask so many questions that it just isn't worth the time responding after the first one or two.
The boards I have designed myself usually go for $12 to $15 with the same charges for shipping.
No one has complained. The only issue is that some newbies ask so many questions that it just isn't worth the time responding after the first one or two.
Good luck on that 'ask'.
I purchased some boards from 'Rod' a few years ago but lost the support docs in a computer mixup. I emailed him a couple of weeks ago to ask for a fresh link to the docs (the old one he emailed me originally doesn't work now).
No reply.
Before this, I would have recommended only buying from Mr Elliott, to support his work, but loyalty is a two-way street for me.
If you copy the pcb track for track then it is probably illegal as its a work of art.
If you make a few changes then you are fine.
Simplest route is to ask the designer for permission.
I asked Maplin a few years ago for permission to copy one of their obsolete amps and they were fine with it.
If you make a few changes then you are fine.
Simplest route is to ask the designer for permission.
I asked Maplin a few years ago for permission to copy one of their obsolete amps and they were fine with it.
As Rod clearly states on his website that the sale of PCBs helps run the site I would personally not wish to take revenue off him. If however it is an evolution of his design and you are only passing on the spares from a MOQ at cost then it is up to how you feel about it.
Having looked at your thread it appears to be a pretty straight copy though.
Having looked at your thread it appears to be a pretty straight copy though.
I don’t think is ethical but I think it is legal....
what if the schematic of the amplifier was not public published but received when bought the product , in this case , is it ok to clone the amp or not? And to sell the extra boards ordered? When selling the boards I would have to share the schematic of the amp too.
what if the schematic of the amplifier was not public published but received when bought the product , in this case , is it ok to clone the amp or not? And to sell the extra boards ordered? When selling the boards I would have to share the schematic of the amp too.
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But it is NOT a "community supplied" anything . Why do you say so?
Rodd has made an impressive effort to build an excellent site full of reliable information, a rarity across the whole Internet, the least you can do ssupport it with a few bucks and order one of his boards.
But you prefer to send that money to China, and to make it even worse kill many of Rodd´s possible sales, as many as you have surplus PCBs ... how does that sound?
REALLY?
What "loyalty" are you talking about?
You bought a couple PCBs YEARS AGO, got them,plus full documentation, YOU lost data , ... and expect him to bend backwards to resupply you? For free I might add.
Even large Corporations such as Fender, Marshall, VOX, Laney, you-name-it , with dedicated salaried personnel just to answer customer´s Emails delay or miss answers ... and you are angry at a one man operation not answering?
And that IF your mail didn´t go to wrong address, fell in the spam pit, etc.
And people complain about "entitled Millennials" ....
I have had only positive experience dealing with Rod Elliott.
The link I got buying boards back in 10/2016 only needs an "s" to work, as in "https:// ...."
Bending backwards?? The PCBs were ordered in March 2017. 3 small boards - total area about 15 sq in. Price: $66 USD + $14 USD for shipping. I emailed him a couple of weeks ago. He could have left an 'Out of Office' automated reply if he wasn't answering emails. He could have hit 'reply' and stated he doesn't support his products, or he could have emailed me the updated link, which is all I asked for. He could have provided printed documentation in the package with the PCBs- the shipping charge should have covered it. He could have maintained his website so that the provided URL on the invoice and in the email: sound-au.com/secure was re-directed to a URL that didn't give a 404 error.
If that's an attitude of entitlement, so be it.
Thanks, Soren. Problem solved with your help.
The 'link' I was given was sound-au.com/secure/
Lack of internet savvy on my part, but I don't think his customers should need to know more than to type or click on the provided link.
You have an audio business.
How long do you provide support to your customers?
Email is not a perfect 100% medium. Maybe he never got your email ? Maybe he replied and you didn't get his email ?
Obviously the cost of the pcb's didn't include his time, effort and knowledge to design the circuit and do the layout.
Two years can be an eternity. Maybe he lost the files in a computer crash ? Maybe with all the hundreds of designs he has he himself can't find them ?
Lets face it, if you lost the files, is it inconceivable that he might not also have lost them ?
Lets all have a group hug and be happy
Obviously the cost of the pcb's didn't include his time, effort and knowledge to design the circuit and do the layout.
Two years can be an eternity. Maybe he lost the files in a computer crash ? Maybe with all the hundreds of designs he has he himself can't find them ?
Lets face it, if you lost the files, is it inconceivable that he might not also have lost them ?
Lets all have a group hug and be happy
I think you know the answer or you wouldn't be asking here?
As I stated, this is a genuine question being asked from a position of real doubt and an unwillingness to tread on the toes of the people who are helping me learn and enjoy the hobby.
And given the wildly varying answers by some fairly senior forum members, I think the question was entirely suitable to ask
Even the most casual glance at Rod Elliot’s (beautifully generous) homepage encourages the reader to treat his articles and designs in the spirit of engaging in DIY. Many of his designs don’t have PCBs at all, but depend on being cooked up at home. This is what I mean by “community supplied”. Of course he would like to sell his PCBs, but he fully expects his schematics will be cobbled together by DIYers.
I have donated directly to Rod Elliot via the Paypal button on his site, with no expectations, to thank him for his work. In addition, I have asked him if I can use donations to pay full price for PCBs to receive extended documentation without him actually having to send me the PCBs, and without the risk of shipping PCBs to South Africa only to have them be “lost” in our appalling postal service. Thanks for jumping to conclusions.
And thanks for misrepresenting my intentions.
With all due respect, the reason I’m doing this is not (just!) to add yet another headphone amplifier to my collection. If that were the case, I'd just buy a headphone amplifier. Or buy Mr Elliot's PCBs. I'm doing this because I absolutely love designing and producing circuits and PCBs on my own.
I was blown away by Mr Elliot’s thoroughly explained design. But I don’t want his boards... I want to make them myself, and learn along the way. In this case, using a low-cost PCB manufacturer is simply a substitute for a breadboard/protoboard, and a good substitute at that given Elliot’s warnings about oscillation and noise when using non-PCB platforms. This has nothing to do with the transfer of income from Mr Elliot to China - and everything to do with the “DIY” part of “diyAudio”.
Kindly extend one of your fellow enthusiasts the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions and outrage, particularly when it was sparked by a question that was clearly asked in good faith. Many, many people wouldn’t have bothered to ask at all.
This is why people love the internetAnd given the wildly varying answers by some fairly senior forum members, I think the question was entirely suitable to ask
Anyway, I'm saying, it's obviously bothering you so do whatever you think is best, no point asking for other people's opinions to my mind?I hear you! I'm merely wanting to see if there's a standard "diyAudio" method / etiquette I should be following, or seeking the experiences of people who've been down the same road. I know this is a difficult subject, and the internet being what it is I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of a creative/ethical consensus
(Consensus - ha!)
(Consensus - ha!)
Thanks! I think this sounds reasonable. I have of course emailed Rod Elliot for his views as well, will wait for his response.
So, did you ever get a reply from Mr Elliott?
Just curious if he answers emails from other people; he never replied to mine.
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