Music Reproduction Systems - what are we trying to achieve?

armarra1 said:
Its AC rather than DC that's affected by skindepth.

The point was that size affects frequency... though this isn't assisting.
You still haven't told us what effect will cause different frequencies going through the same piece of wire to interfere with each other. Skin effect can't do it because it is linear. Normal resistance can't do it because metal resistance is linear. Inductance/capacitance can't do it because they too are linear. So what do you suppose causes this effect you claim happens?
 

TNT

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While I read your replies, here is what I am talking about,

If a live band was reduced to this size, what would it sound like? Or what should it sound like?

So it's the statue/size of the band/instruments listening into the sound-scape that you are after?

I call this "doll-house" stereo. It's when everything seem perfect but it's just so small. Everything is between the speakers and it is like a miniature stage.

So what causes this?

I believe its not a tone-curve issue... but...

//
 
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While I am at it, some brainy quotes on Hi-Fi.

I loved music, and in my ninth year at MIT, I decided to buy a hi-fi set. I figured that all I needed to do was look at the specifications. So I bought what looked like the best one, turned it on, and turned it off in five minutes, the sound was so poor.
Amar Bose
Read more at: Search Results

I hear you, Amar.

The people recognize themselves in their commodities; they find their soul in their automobile, hi-fi set, split-level home, kitchen equipment.
Herbert Marcuse
Read more at: The people recognize themselves in their commodities; they find their soul in their automobile, hi-fi set, split-level home, kitchen equipment. - Herbert Marcuse - BrainyQuote

I started in a research lab for TV cameras, then I worked at a tape duplication facility. That was the first introduction for me to recorded music and hi-fi.
Alan Parsons

Read more at: I started in a research lab for TV cameras, then I worked at a tape duplication facility. That was the first introduction for me to recorded music and hi-fi. - Alan Parsons - BrainyQuote

One more: had to include this one. Guess who said this? It was at a time when all music was Hi-Definition.

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything.

(Brainy Quotes)

Have a look at them all here: really worked for me, reminding me what this is all about, music, emotions.

Music Quotes - BrainyQuote

I must remember this when designing and building speakers:

Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. Ludwig van Beethoven
Read more at: Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. - Ludwig van Beethoven - BrainyQuote

More Questions:

I have had some problems trying to evaluate my speakers using some of the formats below. Digital streaming works best for me (Yonder Music), but is there any inherent problem with these formats or does it depend entirely on the quality of the recording - quality of the source and correct recording techniques?

1. MP3 - 320 kbit/s
2. FLAC/ OGG/ WAV
3. Tape converted to CD audio
4. Vinyl record converted to CD audio
5. You Tube - music listed as HD6
6. Streaming music - For example, iTunes, Yonder Music

Any of these formats I should just drop from my list if I want to listen to the best possible recording? I saw the article about compression, not sure if it applies here.

My cheap cardboard speakers setup is revealing different levels of quality among different recordings, is this normal?
 
Tape is often maligned as a poor cousin to vinyl but tape is a much cheaper alternative to get that magic of analoque music where the connection of movement to sound is more apparent via the media.

A usb stick doesn't DO anything.

Tape recording ought to be done on metal type IV tape with a dolby S...not B or C type recording. This yealds a signal to noise ratio of upper 80s which compares well with digital of high 90s amd is far better than 50s of a typical standard cassette.. indeed the average person cannot discern whether a recording is digital or dloby S tape.

Vinyl comes in with a typical high 70s signal to noise and more modfest in its frequency range.

Debate continues on analog versus the sampleddigital approximation and purists go for the analogue merely as a placebo effect of warmth in the music. Please dont discount the advantage of a good tape on a good dolby S tape player for a wonderful music experience that is also pprtable and fun to engage in.
 

TNT

Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
My point is that music played softly should not sound like a doll-house stereo.

At least if you want real Hi-Fi or something like it. Maybe we were looking for Hi Fi in all the wrong places. Some have spent a lifetime lookin' for Hi Fi.

I would believe that accurate faithful reproduction of a real acoustic event can only be done if the levels reproduced correspond to that of the recorded live event.

//
 
Sounds right but suggest try what mitchba hints because at first its calibrated and tied to a reference level and second it follows the new standard ISO 226:2003 superseding old Fletcher-Munson and for third the loudness contour is dynamic with SPL and how precise can a analog circuit in amps be for that feature compared to programmed feature into digital filters in a digital player.

Dynamic curves:
666986d1520469519-music-reproduction-systems-trying-achieve-4000-png



Can creative help a quick guide should you or BasicHIFI1 want to try it out, if you haven't JRiver get their 30 days trial and can recommend use 64bit version if your OS is on par, into "Tools/Options/Audio/Audio Device" setup your soundcard to "ASIO" or "WASAPI" to get bit perfect sound stream, then in "Tools/Options/Audio/Volume" you will see below and set "Volume mode:Internal Volume" and tick on "Loudnees" and the other two marked yellow below will dictate ratio of loudness so as setting is seen below means when using volume slider at top left corner in player from 87-100 nothing will happen because reference level output about 83dB SPL at listening position (or use head phones) but when volume slider goes below 87 then that ISO 226:2003 curve starts kick in, and for example one could also set "Maximum volume" to 87 then system will never play louder than 83dB SPL at listening position or it could be to make headroom for the build in DSP to EQ correct speaker system. So if one active take care and measure at listening position where about 83db SPL point is relative to volume slider it should be possible fill in and set those two numbers optimal.

666987d1520469519-music-reproduction-systems-trying-achieve-4001-png



About speaker wires to be thick enough and skin depth think not its so evil as thought about, for example a 0,4mm diameter solid wire can fine enough stream audio band in shorter lengths which is possible in active systems having amps sitting relative near. For that diameter cable skin depth in audio band will just be as bad or something if its a 20Hz or its a 20kHz regarding full skin depth and so what if it doesn't run hot for actual situation of power. Think it looks when wire task is for use as speaker cable that conductor spacing/inductance is the one to look for having the closer the spacing the better. Below is from a cable catalogue and wow we need 14,7mm for those 20Hz atmosphere notes : )

666988d1520469519-music-reproduction-systems-trying-achieve-4002-png
 

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Tape is often maligned as a poor cousin to vinyl but tape is a much cheaper alternative to get that magic of analoque music where the connection of movement to sound is more apparent via the media.

A usb stick doesn't DO anything.

Tape recording ought to be done on metal type IV tape with a dolby S...not B or C type recording. This yealds a signal to noise ratio of upper 80s which compares well with digital of high 90s amd is far better than 50s of a typical standard cassette.. indeed the average person cannot discern whether a recording is digital or dloby S tape.

Vinyl comes in with a typical high 70s signal to noise and more modfest in its frequency range.

Debate continues on analog versus the sampleddigital approximation and purists go for the analogue merely as a placebo effect of warmth in the music. Please dont discount the advantage of a good tape on a good dolby S tape player for a wonderful music experience that is also pprtable and fun to engage in.

The thing is how to make tapes last forever. As mentioned, Tom Coster's album is a really high quality recording, keyboards, no less, and was taken from a compact cassette that was relatively new, purchased in Vancouver Canada in 1991 or so and recorded to CD in 1995 I think.

I had that suspicion about vinyl, never was impressed with its bass response, and now you tell me its dynamic range is less, yes, less punch than tape.

I was trying to figure out where vinyl got its quality from - and I know now- it's from the master tapes. I think that the best vinyl record can output is what it got from the original open reel tapes, I keep thinking studio tape, master tape, instead of vinyl. There is an excellent video on open reel tapes - I do ultimately want one, along with the studio masters - where the playback sample played back is simply out of this world.

In the Bee Gees video hear how the tape spools up - huge tapes, those.

I have heard open reel twice in my life, once at the home of my parent's friends, and remembering that it did sound better, more expanded, with more sound in it. The other time, but I have no memory of its quality, was in pre- 1970 era, I was about 4 years old, and the tape used to unravel and spill out on the floor occasionally, lent to us by a relative from the UK.

So tapes are good.
 
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The thing is how to make tapes last forever. As mentioned, Tom Coster's album is a really high quality recording, keyboards, no less, and was taken from a compact cassette that was relatively new, purchased in Vancouver Canada in 1991 or so and recorded to CD in 1995 I think.

I had that suspicion about vinyl, never was impressed with its bass response, and now you tell me its dynamic range is less, yes, less punch than tape.

I was trying to figure out where vinyl got its quality from - and I know now- it's from the master tapes. I think that the best vinyl record can output is what it got from the original open reel tapes, I keep thinking studio tape, master tape, instead of vinyl. There is an excellent video on open reel tapes - I do ultimately want one, along with the studio masters - where the playback sample played back is simply out of this world.

In the Bee Gees video hear how the tape spools up - huge tapes, those.

I have heard open reel twice in my life, once at the home of my parent's friends, and remembering that it did sound better, more expanded, with more sound in it. The other time, but I have no memory of its quality, was in pre- 1970 era, I was about 4 years old, and the tape used to unravel and spill out on the floor occasionally, lent to us by a relative from the UK.

So tapes are good.
I was referring to cassette tapes. Although reel to reel is brilliant I hear.

The earliest cassette that you can hold in your hands has around 50db signal to noise whereas dolby s cassette tape has high 80s db signal to noise.

The slower speed of reel to reel enables high quality of reproduction.

Cassette tapes are portable and cheap. I imagine reel to reel arent cheap but ceratinly less portable.
 
Cassette tape will normally be inferior to vinyl, even if the noise problem is solved by some form of compression/expansion. Cassette tracks are simply too narrow and the speed too slow. It can make a pleasant sound, but it is barely hi-fi. When people on here say 'tape' you can assume they mean reel-to-reel.

The slower speed of reel to reel enables high quality of reproduction.
No, the opposite is true. R2R is faster, and has wider tracks. That is why it is superior to cassette.
 
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Cassette tape will normally be inferior to vinyl, even if the noise problem is solved by some form of compression/expansion. Cassette tracks are simply too narrow and the speed too slow. It can make a pleasant sound, but it is barely hi-fi. When people on here say 'tape' you can assume they mean reel-to-reel.


No, the opposite is true. R2R is faster, and has wider tracks. That is why it is superior to cassette.
Ok. I get ur point about faster then... but never having heard R to R I cant imagine what its like.

R to R is expensive I believe.

Whats the signal to noise ratio of R2R? .. id be keen to know.

Vinyl is in the high 70s isnt it... at least the affordable ttbles.

Cassettes can get as high as 87db despite the first as low as 50db.

Not sure about R2R...


but CDs are above 90db.

So unless ur wanting to spend serious money I'd put my money on cassettes.
 
There is more to sound than signal-to-noise ratio. Cassettes suffer badly from dropouts and flutter, and really flat frequency response to HF is only possible if both record and playback devices have exactly the same head alignment and precisely correct bias for the tape formulation. As I said, cassettes can make a nice sound but it is barely hi-fi and most people would regard it as inferior to vinyl. Pre-recorded cassettes are often awful, being the result of high-speed duplication onto cheap tape.

I would advise people to avoid cassette, unless they already have recordings they want to keep and listen to.
 
There is more to sound than signal-to-noise ratio. Cassettes suffer badly from dropouts and flutter, and really flat frequency response to HF is only possible if both record and playback devices have exactly the same head alignment and precisely correct bias for the tape formulation. As I said, cassettes can make a nice sound but it is barely hi-fi and most people would regard it as inferior to vinyl. Pre-recorded cassettes are often awful, being the result of high-speed duplication onto cheap tape.

I would advise people to avoid cassette, unless they already have recordings they want to keep and listen to.
Did you know that cassette players continued to develop past the time when CDs were put to the market.


There are cassette players that automatically set the bias equalisation and recording level by recording multiple times onto the tape and then listening to that signal against the original.

That might not account for drop outs but any miss handled media will suffer degradation and vintl is no exceprion

What about wow and flutter of vinyl. After all it has its problems too.

Take a second look at the later cassette decks as they're much better than the ones we used until CDs came along.

Just like vinyl they too have their advantages.
 
There is more to sound than signal-to-noise ratio. Cassettes suffer badly from dropouts and flutter, and really flat frequency response to HF is only possible if both record and playback devices have exactly the same head alignment and precisely correct bias for the tape formulation. As I said, cassettes can make a nice sound but it is barely hi-fi and most people would regard it as inferior to vinyl. Pre-recorded cassettes are often awful, being the result of high-speed duplication onto cheap tape.

I would advise people to avoid cassette, unless they already have recordings they want to keep and listen to.
There are even cassettes that automatically align the heads.
 

TNT

Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
When played very softly.. the bass will suffer.

A lot of bass compensation is needed and typically the loudness control achieves this.

Turn your stereo right down then add in the loudness and toull hear a big difference.

I still don't think it is only a matter of tone curve. Faithful tactile cues and actual sound pressure is needed for optimal fidelity.

//
 
Wow! hornets' nest ......
Just bought a 96k/24bit recording of Vaughn Williams Symphony 2 1920 version
see: Vaughan Williams: A London Symphony & other works - CDA68190 - Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958) - Hyperion Records - MP3 and Lossless downloads
and played it through my new DSP and amplifiers. Plenty of bass, transparent top end - sound levels seem to be similar to listening in a concert hall. Better than CD quality.
What is missing from the recording/playback is the quality of tone, particularly in the top strings. This could be anywhere in the playback system, but probably the speakers (Eikona 1). But ... string tone is not consistent in live orchestras - I just know it ain't right whatever orchestra is on the recording.
That doesn't stop me from enjoying the symphony, and as I am unlikely to hear the 1920 edition live then I just get happier as the playback system improves.
Insufficient bass is usually the biggest disappointment. As long as I can tell flute from oboe from clarinet then the top end is just fine.
Does this help BasicHIFI1 to answer his original question? or just add more mud?
Andy
 
I still don't think it is only a matter of tone curve. Faithful tactile cues and actual sound pressure is needed for optimal fidelity.

//
Hi TNT... 'faithful cues' aren't measurable and therefore they're subjective.

Sound pressure is most certainly connected with dB which is volume. Given that sound is transmitted in pressure longitudinal waves where the amplitude of that pressure wave coincides woth the volume we hear.

So to remain objective we need to be talking about qualified measurables.. rhat is to say a measurables along with cinditions of measurenent that effect it... for example bB at 1 meter from the speaker along the axis outwards from the cone centre or the frequency limit at a particular dB level.

All this sounds very clinical and lacks the gut feeling but thats the only way we can agree on what we perceive.

I would like to know what R2R tapes produce in terms od frequency and signal to noise ratio... at least as indicative figures.

How do you purchase music in R2R ? Do they send the reels in the post and are they transportable like that ?

how many 4 minute songs can you fit on a R2R tape and how easy is it to change tapes.

All these go into the enjoyment because convenience also counts.

Of course the ritual of threading the tape can have its own degree of enjoyment... akin to cleaning the dust spwcs of a record and gently setting the needle down.

Its a subjective level of enjoyment. .but id be interested to see how much we can measure the R2R performance.