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High-order dither listening test
High-order dither listening test
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:36 PM   #11
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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High-order dither listening test
I think that may be the idea Pavel. The noise sounds very different between the two. I listened via laptop and earbuds.
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:51 PM   #12
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Yes, one has a lot lot of noise and the second one has even more noise. White noise amount is the difference. To me, for listening purposes, these are both defective files.
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:58 PM   #13
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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OK, over my doubts, this is my one and only attempt.

Code:
foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2017-11-11 16:53:51

File A: silverysea7.wav
SHA1: ecd9a04e7b536b6654a75ad7e98556429986c6a3
File B: silverysea8.wav
SHA1: 5a4d1a92ecde5c951aaa0b40ae83c6fc716e9d8f

Used DSPs:
Resampler (PPHS)

Output:
WASAPI (event) : Speaker (USB Sound Blaster HD), 24-bit
Crossfading: NO

16:53:51 : Test started.
16:54:47 : 01/01
16:54:55 : 02/02
16:55:07 : 03/03
16:55:18 : 04/04
16:55:27 : 05/05
16:55:33 : 06/06
16:55:40 : 07/07
16:55:46 : 08/08
16:55:52 : 09/09
16:56:00 : 09/10
16:56:06 : 09/11
16:56:11 : 10/12
16:56:11 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/12
Probability that you were guessing: 1.9%

 -- signature -- 
58bbbfc2a8e1991b30fc97ddbc3dd440bb388a15

Last edited by PMA; 11th November 2017 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:00 PM   #14
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
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One is quantized to 7 bits with triangular dither, the other to 8 bits with eleventh-order dither, so they are both supposed to be very noisy.
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:03 PM   #15
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
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By the way, which one sounds the noisiest to you?
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:03 PM   #16
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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OK, they are, and the difference in the noise level is audible.
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:04 PM   #17
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcelvdG View Post
By the way, which one sounds the noisiest to you?
Subjectively the 2nd one, silvery8
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:54 PM   #18
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
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As a sanity check, I just downloaded the files, subtracted the original signal and determined the RMS level of the noise produced by the dithered course quantization. The result was -39.12 dB with respect to the RMS level of a full-scale sine wave for silvery7 and -39.14 dB with respect to the RMS level of a full-scale sine wave for silvery8. In theory it should be -39.1339 dB for both files.

The peak level of the noise is quite different, though: -32.63 dB for silvery7 and -29.28 dB for silvery8 with respect to the full-scale level (the real full scale, not the RMS value of a full-scale sine wave). The theoretical values are -32.6018 dB and -26.5812 dB, respectively, but that -26.5812 dB will almost never occur because it requires all eleven random processes that make the eleventh-order dither and the round-off error to be at their maximum and in the same direction simultaneously.

I think this shows that the subjective noise level depends on the probability distribution as well as on the RMS value. That's actually why the ITU-R 468 standard prescribes a quasi-peak detector rather than an RMS detector. It also means that we're not going to find out anything about the audibility of the higher-order moments this way, because I don't know how to subjectively level match the noise.

In any case, you didn't complain about distortion, so apparently the dithered quantization error sounded like noise to you for both cases.

Thanks for participating!

Last edited by MarcelvdG; 11th November 2017 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:37 PM   #19
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
I think that may be the idea Pavel. The noise sounds very different between the two. I listened via laptop and earbuds.
Mooly, did you notice any differences other than the subjective difference in white noise level that PMA reported?
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:54 PM   #20
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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High-order dither listening test
I didn't so much notice a difference in noise level, more a difference in the makeup of the noise. Silvery7 seems more 'granular', not as smooth for want of a better word.
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