I'm also a skeptic, but you can't dismiss this stuff without examining it. Maybe if I look at 100 things that are probably snake oil, I'll find something unexpected. Science relies on multiple people duplicating results before something is considered well understood, and sometimes those results are boring and as expected. You still have to do it. As for the amplifier sound change, that's a pita to test, unless you're a manufacturer. Then it would be easy to take a few units off the line, run one to whatever state of grace is deemed suitable, then do a differential measurement on the output of that and a new one, with identical signals. One thing I like about differential measurements, aside from their great sensitivity, is you can do them with music. Though I'm a believer in Fourier-Shannon and Nyquist and such, it gets around the objections of people that think test signals don't represent music. They do, but I get tired of the argument.
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How.... Any explanation and information that is NOT from an audio suppliers website, i.e. credible information not Audiophile spouting's of nonsense.....
As to your last sentence of course they can be measured, the critical factors are inductance, capacitance and resistance.....
IMO, since conductor material seems to be a non-issue, cable measurements come down to the usual LCR stuff relating to the dielectric, plus DF and DA, naturally all over the full audio bandwidth and a bit. One might look at EMI susceptibility as well, since they probably differ in that regard.
How much difference will DF and DA make at audio frequency's?
EMI susceptibility on s standard co-ax should be pretty similar IF the cable is correctly engineered; on mains cables a bit more problematic especially if you are near anywhere that uses power line communications... Russ Andrews got a slap on the wrist about 2011 for claiming in an advert that their cable reduced EMI.
The problem with cables in audio is there is a lot of money to be made on selling exotic cables, whereas most other electronic engineering disciplines will engineer the best solution, so you have a whole side industry built up to extract money from the punters.
Over the last several decades the esoteric side has built up and does distract from the real issues and terms such as Engineering, DBT, measurements are scoffed at by the GEB types, instead myths and Guru's are created and worshipped with great zeal by the disciples'.
Bring back engineering and sanity to our hobby.....
EMI susceptibility on s standard co-ax should be pretty similar IF the cable is correctly engineered; on mains cables a bit more problematic especially if you are near anywhere that uses power line communications... Russ Andrews got a slap on the wrist about 2011 for claiming in an advert that their cable reduced EMI.
The problem with cables in audio is there is a lot of money to be made on selling exotic cables, whereas most other electronic engineering disciplines will engineer the best solution, so you have a whole side industry built up to extract money from the punters.
Over the last several decades the esoteric side has built up and does distract from the real issues and terms such as Engineering, DBT, measurements are scoffed at by the GEB types, instead myths and Guru's are created and worshipped with great zeal by the disciples'.
Bring back engineering and sanity to our hobby.....
Such discussion may be futile for those who do think they can hear differences in cables, if their 'hearing' only works in conjunction with sight. Let's not go down the silly path of saying that explanations for a claimed effect can only be discussed by people who believe they have experienced the effect - I have not experienced sunrise on Mars but I can still put forward the explanation that it arises from rotation of the planet.James A said:
One of the most annoying things about some people that think they hear differences in cables, components, break-in, etc is just how intolerant/abusive they can be - it seems to be their obligation to convince everyone of the 'error of their ways' and are fools to be 'taken in' by scientists and engineers - deafness, inadequate equipment, 'closed-box' thinking, dislike of music, etc usually added somewhere!jameshillj said:
CERN?s LHCb experiment reports observation of exotic pentaquark particles | CERN press office this is the reason!
Now how soon before a pentaquark tuning device hits the market!
Now how soon before a pentaquark tuning device hits the market!
I have noticed that those who most clearly "hear" differences in cables etc are often quick to reject possible effects of LCR and hence also reject the idea that actually measuring those properties of a cable would be useful or informative.
Some years ago in the Audio Critic there was an article that examined measurements of cables (I think done elsewhere) and of the input and output impedance of various amplifiers. They plotted predicted frequency response of the various combinations. Unsurprisingly combinations of "normal" cables and "normal" amps and loads produced good frequency response. A few high-end cables that had low capacitance or inductance produced better response. Combinations of pathological "high end" cables with pathological "high-end" amps produced bizarre frequency response anomalies, which some people seem to like.
Then there was the hifi shop in Toronto that invited customers to audition a new cable and, inadvertently or not, flipped a switch that did nothing. That is, A and B were the same cable. Cloth-eared folks heard no difference, while the cognoscenti took notes and later described the vast and obvious differences they heard between A and B. Interestingly they were mostly in agreement about the differences. I do not know what they actually said, but I'm pretty sure i have read it in some magazines.
Some years ago in the Audio Critic there was an article that examined measurements of cables (I think done elsewhere) and of the input and output impedance of various amplifiers. They plotted predicted frequency response of the various combinations. Unsurprisingly combinations of "normal" cables and "normal" amps and loads produced good frequency response. A few high-end cables that had low capacitance or inductance produced better response. Combinations of pathological "high end" cables with pathological "high-end" amps produced bizarre frequency response anomalies, which some people seem to like.
Then there was the hifi shop in Toronto that invited customers to audition a new cable and, inadvertently or not, flipped a switch that did nothing. That is, A and B were the same cable. Cloth-eared folks heard no difference, while the cognoscenti took notes and later described the vast and obvious differences they heard between A and B. Interestingly they were mostly in agreement about the differences. I do not know what they actually said, but I'm pretty sure i have read it in some magazines.
This ranks right up there with Perpetual Motion.
Sorry but electronics only can get worse with age.
Resistors by nature are only becoming weaker with age.
Caps well mainly electrolytics, are going to generally get weak with age.
But then even solid state devices weaken with age.
Of all of these only I think electrolytic caps, and the traces on the PCB should weaken with age.
So like a car, from the day it is shipped to the end of life it is only a matter of time to see the unit go downhill.
Break in period? Well if you were setting up a concert then I can see wanting to take a newly acquired device and wanting to let it run just to rule out that where it was built they didnt tighten a critical screw, or properly solder something.
Then yes to give it a workout to make sure that when you actually place it into real service that it is going to hold up and not go up in smoke.
How long is this break in period. Well for an amplifier for example I think 10 minutes at 2/3 volume should be adequite to create failure if failure were to happen.
For other low powered devices I think an hour would be adequate. But for the average home user, I dont see much going on that would ever matter since if it did die in the performance your probably going to take it back and either get a refund or exchange it for another one.
Most manufacturers are going to put the device to the torture test, most especially amplifiers to insure they are at least capable to withstand their rated ability.
Sorry but electronics only can get worse with age.
Resistors by nature are only becoming weaker with age.
Caps well mainly electrolytics, are going to generally get weak with age.
But then even solid state devices weaken with age.
Of all of these only I think electrolytic caps, and the traces on the PCB should weaken with age.
So like a car, from the day it is shipped to the end of life it is only a matter of time to see the unit go downhill.
Break in period? Well if you were setting up a concert then I can see wanting to take a newly acquired device and wanting to let it run just to rule out that where it was built they didnt tighten a critical screw, or properly solder something.
Then yes to give it a workout to make sure that when you actually place it into real service that it is going to hold up and not go up in smoke.
How long is this break in period. Well for an amplifier for example I think 10 minutes at 2/3 volume should be adequite to create failure if failure were to happen.
For other low powered devices I think an hour would be adequate. But for the average home user, I dont see much going on that would ever matter since if it did die in the performance your probably going to take it back and either get a refund or exchange it for another one.
Most manufacturers are going to put the device to the torture test, most especially amplifiers to insure they are at least capable to withstand their rated ability.
The issue with those that spend a lot of money on whatever is the latest fad is that they do hear a difference. In yours (presumably) or my (or test equipment's) reality it is absent but in their reality, it is there. The difference in sound is completely and absolutely real... to them. What may be a source of amusement to you or I is a source of enjoyment and satisfaction for them and, if it costs them a big chunk of money, I'm not going to say that it is not worth it to them. Heck, if I spent a couple of K on a piece of wire and then a couple of hundred hours on some esoteric ritual to "break it in" I had da%n well better hear a difference - because otherwise I would have had to admit to myself that I was a gullible idiot - and the subconscious mind will jump through a lot of hoops to avoid doing that. There is a lot of talk and arguments about "objective" and "subjective" and most people say that there can "be only one" and spend God only knows how time and electrons trying to wage their own Holy war against those that feel different. While my reality belongs firmly in the objective camp, I also fully understand that the "reality" experienced by those of the subjective is just as real to them - and they probably find my views just as foolish and hilarious as I do theirs.
Hal
Hal
Well spoken Hal.
But reaching farther into this, those snake oil sales, the rediculous claims,......and the money spent by the gullible...
It's obvious that those products in reality are artificially-flavored candy.
How can anyone know where that revenue is really going?
How could anyone determine if that money isn't funding some evil behind-the-scenes sources?
Not trying to push some "conspiracy theory" stuff, but... it does come to mind.
A 3 foot hunk of wire for $3 grand?........ come on now!
I don't know if I personally would go for a conspiracy angle... to use a couple of well known quotes, I would say that it is more a cross of P.T Barnum's "There's a sucker born every minute" and Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
While I'm at it, I would like to thank you for being a well spoken voice of sanity here.
Hal
PS: Thinking of quotes, the ideal one for life in general, and DIY audio forums in particular
would be: "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, sh!t on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway."
While I'm at it, I would like to thank you for being a well spoken voice of sanity here.
Hal
PS: Thinking of quotes, the ideal one for life in general, and DIY audio forums in particular
would be: "Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over all the pieces, sh!t on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway."
Not everybody agrees with you Hal, about the "well spoken" part.
I get my fair share of complaints on various sites, but that's par for the course.
Some people just like to argue, others feel the need to cling to hypocracy.
I'm not perfect either, I'm human.
But if I see a dollar bill on the sidewalk, I'll call it that.
Others might argue that I found 75 pennies considering inflation.
It never tires.
I get my fair share of complaints on various sites, but that's par for the course.
Some people just like to argue, others feel the need to cling to hypocracy.
I'm not perfect either, I'm human.
But if I see a dollar bill on the sidewalk, I'll call it that.
Others might argue that I found 75 pennies considering inflation.
It never tires.
For me, I approach it as there are those that come here to learn and not to just grind their particular axe. Originally I started reading these forums as a source of audiophool humor both for myself and the associated lab full of EEs here... and still do. For the most part I just lurk around (see comment re pigeons above) but have started to occasionally jump in if I think that I can be of actual help to someone who can benefit. I've been involved - and interested - in electronics for over 40 years and while I'll be the first to admit to how much I don't know, I have managed to pick up the odd bit of knowledge here and there that I try to pass on. My personal interests are Metrology (professionally) and I restore vintage lab grade test equipment as a hobby; the specialized knowledge of troubleshooting, component parasitics and their interaction, and failure modes of both components and assemblies are my daily fare - and, unfortunately, are things not taught in any useful depth by a typical EE degree. So, I am trying to pitch in more when I can. Also, there is much for me to learn here - my approach to signal processing and integrity are NOT the ones in use by consumer and DIY audio and I learn quite a lot by how things are done (both good and bad) by others. In short, I love to learn new techniques and approaches to various problems and trying to pass it along as I may.
Hal
Hal
Presumably the test equipment readings are real to you, but you are sure you are measuring the right things?
Here's something Dr. Earl Geddes said:
"The bottom line here is that we know so little about how humans perceive the sound quality of an audio system, and in particular the loudspeaker, that one should question almost everything that we think we know about measuring it."
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Comments on howard.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/papers.aspx