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Low Level Detail: An experimental search and test.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:45 AM   #111
gabdx is online now gabdx  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Here are the files
Buckaroo Holiday mixed.flac - Google Drive
Buckaroo Holiday.flac - Google Drive

Let me know if you can download and open them
this
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:15 AM   #112
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
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For perception tests of things that should be entirely down in the noise floor don't use uncorrelated signals (like mixing a different track under the given one), this is masked out in perception like any neighbor's kitchen radio playing, our own breathing noise etc. Rather, we must use at least losely correlated but scrambled signal.
As for the original intent of this thread, quantifying low level detail (or loss of it) is really a tough measuring task. A way it might be possible is to measure FR and distortion per full logsweep at contiuously decreasing levels, which calls for precise time-domain averaging multiple takes (thousands, literally) once we decrease level so much that noise is getting dominant in a single take. Then look for changes in the FR/distortion profile vs level, at some point we might see the effect of some non-linear / non-continuous friction or similar. Different test signals might be used as well, including real music. Additionally we could overlay the test signal with uncorrelated noise (which is cancelled out by the averaging to an exactly known amount) and see if this "noise bias" does change anything...
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:36 PM   #113
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Low Level Detail: An experimental search and test.
I can get behind that last part of that as practical to do. The ever lowering FR and distortion might be difficult, and require a very quiet room.
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Old 12th January 2019, 10:46 PM   #114
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Low Level Detail: An experimental search and test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
this
LOL. OK then. I don't think I've ever heard Aaron Copeland's Rodeo described as "only brutal drumming digital absurdity" before.

Did the Sinatra song with the hidden wind quintet strike you equally?
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Old 12th January 2019, 11:03 PM   #115
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Low Level Detail: An experimental search and test.
Pavel. With Goldwave I was able to bring up the level of your Sinatra_diff.wav I can hear the wind Quintet, noise, and some remaining Sinatra. Is that from the MP3 files? If so, Bravo! I was not able to get that from MP3 - only from lossless. How'd you do it?
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Old 12th January 2019, 11:23 PM   #116
olsond3 is offline olsond3  United States
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Default The myth of low level detail revealed

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Originally Posted by gabdx View Post
what is the point to having low level detail which you absolutely cannot hear at all?!!!
I read this excellent thread from beginning to end, and when I got to this post it was just perfect.

The point of testing with "low level detail" which you absolutely cannot hear is to demonstrate the system including speakers may be better than our hearing. If this is the case, it might be interesting to see if these speakers renowned for having superior low level detail might just have some frequency response variation rather than actual lower distortion or noise or other resolving ability.
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Old 15th January 2019, 06:51 AM   #117
davidsrsb is offline davidsrsb  Malaysia
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Is that from the MP3 files? If so, Bravo! I was not able to get that from MP3 - only from lossless. How'd you do it?
The whole purpose of MP3 compression is to cut data rate by discarding low level "noise" that is masked by a strong signal in the same sub band, so there really should not be anything
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Old 15th January 2019, 03:28 PM   #118
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Well, hopefully not completely nothing. One would hope that the higher bit rate schemes leave something there. I wasn't able to pull anything out of even a high bitrate MP3, but it seems that Pavel can.

The embedded signal test may not be the best, but at least it's an easy start. The flaws that I hear in medium to good compression are a loss of ambient details and a warming and pushing forward of the vocals. I suppose those are related. Non listening based tests for that could be tricky, but it would be nice to find such tests.
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Old 15th January 2019, 08:26 PM   #119
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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Low Level Detail: An experimental search and test.
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But having low level detail that you can hear ought to be important to enjoyment of the sound.
It is very important. It makes voices with skin on them and allows for the telling of subtle clues about an instrument, but also the tiny details that allow for a good 3D soundstage/image (if on the recording).

The difference between good hifi and great hifi. Some trining to hear these things does not hurt.

dave
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Old 15th January 2019, 08:58 PM   #120
mmerrill99 is offline mmerrill99
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@KSTR & @planet10
I posted along the same lines as you guys earlier in the thread.
I was looking to investigate the problem from the other end of the issue - finding what type & level of low level distortion is perceptually audible & in what way?

My idea is to try to find a way of generating a noise track correlated to the signal & mixing it with the signal at various levels to establish what conditions of noise/level/mix are audible.

Any ideas?
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