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Cable Distortion Measurements: Part Deux
Cable Distortion Measurements: Part Deux
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Old 29th December 2003, 12:35 PM   #196
mrfeedback is offline mrfeedback  Australia
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"On a particular organ passage, two of his house windows rattled with my power lead in place, and did not rattle with the lead not in circuit."

Stuff like this is perfectly true.

Eric.
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Old 29th December 2003, 02:09 PM   #197
millwood is offline millwood  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
"On a particular organ passage, two of his house windows rattled with my power lead in place, and did not rattle with the lead not in circuit."

Stuff like this is perfectly true.

Eric.
it may very well be. But you didn't investigage others factors that may cause the windows to rattle and attribute the rattling to the use of the leads.

I mentioned this a while ago but it may have escaped you. if you plot a nation's year-to-date rainfall and its year-to-date GDP, you will find an almost perfect correlation (yes, i did that for my stats class in school).

Does that mean the more rain we have, the higher GDP we will get?

I hope all of us are sane enough to say no.

The point? correlation does not mean causality. What we are trying to prove here is causality. Citing incidents of correlation, be it 100x or 1000x, or with you dad or with all the pople in India or God, does NOT help you prove causality.

Please, let's get over with that once and for all.

It is very frustrating that after so many discussions, we are still stuck at Stat 101 for highschoolers.

Again, correlation does not mean causality.
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Old 29th December 2003, 02:51 PM   #198
mrfeedback is offline mrfeedback  Australia
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Originally posted by dillwood
It may very well be. But you didn't investigage others factors that may cause the windows to rattle and attribute the rattling to the use of the leads.
No conditions in the house changed (doors closed or open etc), and it was a windless day.
We played the same passage 4 times without the lead, and four times with the lead.
The same passages of the recording played with the lead inserted caused the windows to rattle every time, and the window did not rattle once without the power lead.
There were no other changes made to the system nor any environmental changes during the period of this testing.
If this is not 100% correlation of the causitive please explain to me what is.

I mentioned this a while ago but it may have escaped you. if you plot a nation's year-to-date rainfall and its year-to-date GDP, you will find an almost perfect correlation (yes, i did that for my stats class in school).
Does that mean the more rain we have, the higher GDP we will get?
I hope all of us are sane enough to say no.
GDP and rainfall have absolutely nothing to do with the audio system described.

The point? correlation does not mean causality. What we are trying to prove here is causality. Citing incidents of correlation, be it 100x or 1000x, or with you dad or with all the pople in India or God, does NOT help you prove causality.
The correlation is that inserting a particular 240V power lead changed the behaviour of the system enought to in this case cause two windows to rattle, and in exactly the same places in the recording each time.

Please, let's get over with that once and for all.
It is very frustrating that after so many discussions, we are still stuck at Stat 101 for highschoolers.
Again, correlation does not mean causality.

It does and very clearly so when there are no other changes in the experimental conditions.
The actual physical mechanisms at work here are another matter, and require close investigation.

Eric.
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Old 29th December 2003, 03:36 PM   #199
millwood is offline millwood  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
Quote:
I mentioned this a while ago but it may have escaped you. if you plot a nation's year-to-date rainfall and its year-to-date GDP, you will find an almost perfect correlation (yes, i did that for my stats class in school).
Does that mean the more rain we have, the higher GDP we will get?
I hope all of us are sane enough to say no.

GDP and rainfall have absolutely nothing to do with the audio system described.

Eric.
I knew my endeavor to teach 'causality" was doomed to fail, and to fail miserably, .

and I was so right.

But as a last try, please allow me to show Eric the following from www.m-w.com (a useful resource, btw):

==============================================
Main Entry: analˇoˇgy
Pronunciation: &-'na-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Date: 15th century
1 : inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will prob. agree in others
2 a : resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY b : comparison based on such resemblance
3 : correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for the creation of another form
4 : correspondence in function between anatomical parts of different structure and origin -- compare HOMOLOGY
synonym see LIKENESS
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Old 29th December 2003, 05:38 PM   #200
johnferrier is offline johnferrier  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
"On a particular organ passage, two of his house windows rattled with my power lead in place, and did not rattle with the lead not in circuit."

Stuff like this is perfectly true.

Eric.


Eric,

Just to be perfectly clear, these are leads used for line power--240V AC? It's interesting that there would be such an effect (rattling windows).

My comments may have gotten lost, but I hear a noticeable improvement using an AC power conditioner. I want to do a listening test with my sister (a piano teacher). We talked about this yesterday (we got together to unwrap gift with her kids--no time to actual test).

So it is where it is interesting to find news, such as yours, that aids in learning about a sound system. The rattling windows seemed like an AB test that just presented itself.

So, what is your thoughts on measuring cables? Does it surprise you that the distortion measurements don't reveal anything? Or do you think we don't know how to make the proper measurement?

(As far as my power conditioner, I guess I think it must be breaking some sort of ground loop. This is just a small point though. Something else comes to mind.)

The sounds that cause windows rattling must be something that is measureable with microphones etc. You might even be able to record the difference. Anyway, though it's probably not categorically true, maybe there is too much focus on single component testing. Although, if your system does change sound with the power lead, it still seems that there would be a test that would reveal how it differs from a standard lead.

Anyway, at this time, I mostly wish to point out that someone in addition to Millwood appreciates your forum contribution.


JF
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Old 30th December 2003, 12:11 AM   #201
mrfeedback is offline mrfeedback  Australia
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Hi John, Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, to clarify, the lead in question is a 240V extension lead about 400mm long, with a standard plug at one end and standard in-line socket at the other.
"My comments may have gotten lost, but I hear a noticeable improvement using an AC power conditioner."
I hear changes with such condtioners also.
I have several 240V-240V isolation transformers, and I hear differences with these too that I regard as improvement.

"So it is where it is interesting to find news, such as yours, that aids in learning about a sound system. The rattling windows seemed like an AB test that just presented itself."
Yes, we were doing A/B tests wrt the 240V cable and mostly listening to the better clarity in mids and highs when surprise surprise the window rattled with the cable in place.
Actually this did not come as surprise to me as I have used this cable in a PA system, and the effect there is to quite dramatically clean mids and highs, and the low bass becomes stronger and better defined too, such that the soles of one's shoes buzz when standing on thinly carpeted cement floor.
Despite system eq's I am not able to achieve this without the cable supplying the system.

"So, what is your thoughts on measuring cables? Does it surprise you that the distortion measurements don't reveal anything? Or do you think we don't know how to make the proper measurement?"
Yes, I suspect that the test methodology is not able to replicate what Bruno, JC, myself and others are hearing.
Music is of course a non steady state waveform, and it may be that sine wave testing does not reveal decay products due to DA etc.


"(As far as my power conditioner, I guess I think it must be breaking some sort of ground loop. This is just a small point though. Something else comes to mind.)"
There are two types of conditioner - on line and off line, but as far as I know the earth wire connection is continuous through both types.
I think you would be surprised at how transparent supplies are to noise on the AC power lines.
AC power leakage to chassis is another factor, but I don't think that this is the whole story.
The power and signal cables that I have made cause a distinctive clarity and solidness in all systems that I am unable to get any other way.

"The sounds that cause windows rattling must be something that is measureable with microphones etc. You might even be able to record the difference. Anyway, though it's probably not categorically true, maybe there is too much focus on single component testing. Although, if your system does change sound with the power lead, it still seems that there would be a test that would reveal how it differs from a standard lead."
Yes, I tried increasing the volume by 1 dB without the lead installed but this did not excite the windows.
I do expect that a suitable microphone and analysis software would tease out the differences over a suitable time span.
My leads do not alter frequency responses per se, but they do alter dynamic behaviours interestingly and very pleasantly.

"Anyway, at this time, I mostly wish to point out that someone in addition to Millwood appreciates your forum contribution."
Yes, thanks again - it seems that Mr Millwood has some kind of preocupation with statistics, such that it precludes him from noting or understanding facts when presented to him.
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Old 30th December 2003, 12:21 AM   #202
fdegrove is offline fdegrove  Europe
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Hi,

Quote:
it seems that Mr Millwood has some kind of preocupation with statistics, such that it precludes him from noting or understanding facts when presented to him.
His friends are into hip-hop but he's into "folk".....

Sorry, Belgian joke...
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Old 30th December 2003, 01:06 AM   #203
millwood is offline millwood  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
it seems that Mr Millwood has some kind of preocupation with statistics, such that it precludes him from noting or understanding facts when presented to him.
so that it precludes me from buying into bogus "theories" of yours based solely on correlation.
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Old 30th December 2003, 01:12 AM   #204
fdegrove is offline fdegrove  Europe
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Hi,

Correlation and cause and effect aren't the same thing...

Eric showed causality.

Cheers,
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Old 30th December 2003, 01:19 AM   #205
millwood is offline millwood  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Correlation and cause and effect aren't the same thing...

Eric showed causality.

Cheers,

thanks for pointing that out for Eric.

Yeah. Don't you wish sometimes you could call things the way you want?

Too bad you could only do that in the cyberspace, not in the real world, .
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Old 30th December 2003, 01:20 AM   #206
mrfeedback is offline mrfeedback  Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by millwood
so that it precludes me from buying into bogus "theories" of yours based solely on correlation.
There are no theories presented - only observation of fact.

Eric.
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Old 30th December 2003, 01:23 AM   #207
fdegrove is offline fdegrove  Europe
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Hi,

Quote:
Too bad you could only do that in the cyberspace, not in the real world, .
Seems its real enough for him, so?

Cheers,
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Old 7th January 2004, 12:44 AM   #208
Steve Eddy is offline Steve Eddy  United States
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So Frank, y'ever get hold of Dr. De Ceuninck? So far my EMail to him remains unanswered.

se
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Old 7th January 2004, 12:53 AM   #209
fdegrove is offline fdegrove  Europe
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Hi Steve,

Quote:
So Frank, y'ever get hold of Dr. De Ceuninck?
Not yet...

In Europe people usually take most of January to either visit or receive relatives for New Years wishes, etc.

So no, I've not even called him yet but I will.

As I now have both his work and private numbers back again I expect to call anytime soon.

Cheers and my best whishes for 2004,
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Old 7th January 2004, 01:19 AM   #210
Steve Eddy is offline Steve Eddy  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Hi Steve,



Not yet...

In Europe people usually take most of January to either visit or receive relatives for New Years wishes, etc.

So no, I've not even called him yet but I will.

As I now have both his work and private numbers back again I expect to call anytime soon.
Okie doke.

Quote:
Cheers and my best whishes for 2004,
Thanks. And the same to you and yours.

se
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