Any Insight? TDS -True Dimensional Sound - How it works?

[GeneZ]

Sorry, which folks would that be? People who are aware that they are listening to unavoidable distortions will usually not want to add any more to the mix.

What distortions like that have they not yet licked? Its good they have done that. Because there has been great success in that area I now listen to solid state. Before they did, I enjoyed the even order distortion of tubes.

As we keep saying, and you keep either ignoring or failing to understand, you can only cancel an existing distortion if you know exactly what it is and add an inverse function. Failing to do this simply adds further distortion.

I am saying this. I believe they have yet to discover various distortions. In the mean time, with my add ons I am hearing musical instruments sounding more like they did when I played live. That is my observation. One can argue its distortion if they like. What I hear is closer to what I know I should be hearing.

Let's say you have a sound reproduction chain which is quite good but has some second-order distortion. To correct this you need to add infinite-order distortion of exactly the right shape and amount. (Yes, that's right, the inverse of second-order is infinite-order).

If one eliminates that distortion from the amplification chain, that's great. Now we need to contend with all the types of distortion that we do not know yet how to isolate and measure for.

We need to eliminate all the distortions that interconnects and speaker cables introduce. And, not to mention the source player. Be it digital, or analogue? Even with those, one T-Table will sound different from another. One could easily argue that phono cartridges are by nature effect devices, for they are. One DAC will add effects that another brand will not. The list goes on. Where does one stop?

Now what if I add an effects box into my system and it makes me deluded to think I am listening to something closer to a live performance? It should not be added because its distortion? A distortion that improves the sound to certain listeners is the usual reason effects boxes are designed to begin with. Life goes on.

Anything else will add higher-order distortion to the existing second-order. Real life is not that simple (it is worse!) but anyone who understands maths can see why some of us would rather live with unavoidable distortion than try, and fail, to correct it.

But, I may have to wait until I am too old to hear above 10,000 cycles before what I am looking for is accomplished. In the mean time? Until that is made to happen? I will live with what causes me to have a better subjective sound to my ears. If a certain perfection is achieved next week? One that makes what I hear sound great without added effects? I will get rid of the effects box in an instant.

In no way am I saying those so inclined should quit seeking ways for perfecting and just get the box I use. I am saying that until they can achieve results they desire some will want to compensate.

I see it like this. At one time diabetics used to have to drink their own urine to survive. Then someone discovered self administered insulin. They were not really corrections for their problem. They were a means to compensate. When the day comes and someone finally perfects a way to restore the pancreas? Then the correction will exist. All those methods which brought one closer to resembling a normal system will be done away with. As long as they are used, they are distortions of how the human body should function.

Today those stuck with deficiencies in their system are free to do what is needed to compensate if they so desire. . Again! By no means am I suggestion that the perfectionists should stop seeking a way and get an effects box. I believe some here think I am taking that tact. I am simply waiting for them to solve the problem. The problem that causes a market for the effects box syndrome to exist. If it sounds better to my ears? And, not yours? I thank God for freedom.

GeneZ

 

[thejohn]

GeneZ,

I think the point people are trying to make is more to do with your analogies than the box itself....

Distortion - Man has no legs. Solution - Add artificial leg distortion. Result - Distortion cancelled (to a degree)

but...

Distortion - Man has something wrong. Don't know what. Solution - Add artificial leg distortion in the hope that his problem was lack of legs. Result - Four legged diabetic man! Oops...

If the trumpet that you can suddenly hear clearly was previously 'lost' in the mix, I might argue that someone might have spent some time and effort mixing it that way on purpose and that you have now undone his creative work but if the box makes your system sound more plesant to you, just enjoy it and don't worry about trying to justify how it works...

John

 

[GeneZ]

If the trumpet that you can suddenly hear clearly was previously 'lost' in the mix, I might argue that someone might have spent some time and effort mixing it that way on purpose and that you have now undone his creative work but if the box makes your system sound more plesant to you, just enjoy it and don't worry about trying to justify how it works...

If I am not mistaken, the first candidates to try the TDS was not the general public. It was first offered to the professional recording industry.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] It adds back the spatial depth and natural quality to a recording that I would originally hear in the studio, but could never capture on the finished product. It blows my mind that this little black box makes such a BIG difference!

[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Tom Dowd
Sound Engineer
'96 NARAS Lifetime Achievement Award
Credits on 600+ Gold & Platinum Records & CD's[/FONT]
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[DF96]

I believe they have yet to discover various distortions.

You add a box. It sounds better to you. You believe that the best explanation for this is that the box somehow undoes or compensates for as yet undiscovered accidental distortions in the existing audio chain. Fine. An alternative explanation is that some people prefer sound which has been deliberately distorted in some way. I prefer this explanation.

Different people like different ice creams - lemon, chocolate, vanilla etc. Some may even like it unflavoured, so all you get is the taste of the milk, sugar etc. Then some vanilla-lovers start claiming that vanilla is not an added flavour which they prefer, but a way of compensating for the nasty flavours which ice cream naturally has. They claim that unflavoured ice cream is full of undetected contaminants but adding vanilla removes these so the result is pure ice cream. It sounds daft. It is daft. Why can't they admit that they like vanilla, and prefer it to unflavoured ice cream? Of course, some people do - anyone who says that he prefers "tube sound" is admitting a preference for vanilla. Nothing wrong with that.

We need to eliminate all the distortions that interconnects and speaker cables introduce. And, not to mention the source player. Be it digital, or analogue? Even with those, one T-Table will sound different from another. One could easily argue that phono cartridges are by nature effect devices, for they are. One DAC will add effects that another brand will not. The list goes on. Where does one stop?

You are lumping together here effects which can be heard, measured and explained (e.g. turntable mechanical resonances) and effects for which hearing is disputed, measurement shows nothing untoward and explanation is not necessary (e.g. cable 'distortion'). I suggest that a good place to stop is the point where hearing is proved and measurement is beginning to emerge, even if no explanation is yet available.

 

[Pano]

Why can't they admit that they like vanilla, and prefer it to unflavoured ice cream? Of course, some people do - anyone who says that he prefers "tube sound" is admitting a preference for vanilla. Nothing wrong with that.

Ah. If only it were so simple. But it's not, you know - far from it.

 

[Rickh57]

I just joined the forum to comment on the TDS-II Harmonic Enhancer when I found the thread through a Google search. First of all, like GeneZ, I'm pro-TDS-II. I bought the unit back around '98 or '99 and have had it ever since and have recently found a cool new use for it, which I'll talk about in a moment. It basically went under the radar (no pun intended) in the years since due to my going the 5.1 surround sound route and this product was designed more for 2-channel sound. Well, 5.1 hasn't really worked in my home set-up so I've come back to listening to stereo, via computer, bedroom system, & car stereo, MP3 player. To get to the point of this post, I don't care how it works, whether it "adds distortion" or not, it's a distortion that pleases my ears. We all know that "vinyl warmth" is due to distortion but look at how popular that continues to be. Like I said, I've had this box for 12 years or so and have kept it around because I liked what it did to the sound of my mid-fi system when playing 2-channel audio. FWIW, I also bought one of the Hughes SRS boxes many years ago and the Spatializer unit after that. They've both spent most of their years in my attic collecting dust. But, back to the TDS-II, just this past weekend, I decided to use the TDS-II box with my Sherwood receiver for listening to FLAC files & 320kbps MP3's on my Sansa Fuze via either Shure studio headphones or my Sennheiser 555 'phones. The TDS-II adds a warmth to the audio files on the Sansa that is simply not there without the process. So, I'm pretty excited to use the TDS again for this purpose and it's too bad the company went under before they could get into the MP3/computer audio world like their website talks about that for future plans. But, back to the higher-end audio world, it seems two Soundstage reviewers back in the day were also pretty impressed with the technology, based on their reviews:

http://www.soundstage.com/masz03.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/weaver08.htm

 

[GeneZ]

To get to the point of this post, I don't care how it works, whether it "adds distortion" or not, it's a distortion that pleases my ears. We all know that "vinyl warmth" is due to distortion but look at how popular that continues to be.

Not to misquote anyone's intentions. But, I think the gripe is about adding knowingly and deliberately a distortion..

The more I learn and realize about the pleasures of audio, the more I realize that it has many agreeable distortions already within that we simply take for granted. Its quite common for audio fanatics switch out cables to make a particular set of speakers and amp sound better. Distortion again.

I find it ironic to realize... If someone created the theoretical neutral cable? Speakers? Amplifier? And, on, and on?It could never be recognized! Why? Because of all what its connected to. Life is too short to argue with those who do not want to find out what some component does to improve what is experienced. I have come to see some audiophiles acting like witch hunting Puritans who can not enjoy seeing others enjoying. There is not not one component that can not be faulted in some way. I believe it really ticks some souls off when others can enjoy what does not live up to their standard of what can not be achieved.

There are the open minded who do not agree. But, there are those wish to denigrate behind a veil of pseudo open mindedness. I wonder how much opposition to using audio helps stems from another person's hidden selfish ambition(manufacturer), or jealousy, or audio self righteousness in general. Those factors that lay below the surface interplay in the struggle against those seeking what's perfect for their own personal taste in audio who do not stick with the holy grail of the various worlds of audio marketing.

Once we can face the fact that no audio system is free of distortion in some way? The quest for finding what audibly pleases us becomes the only concern, and not to please others in what they think we should be pleased by. We can learn not to be marketed into being told what we must like if our system is to be deemed acceptable, in spite of the fact we enjoy it immensely when they disapprove.

By the way. I have removed my TDS from my system for the time being. For, I just love what my new Barcus Berry VG360 Sonic Maximzer does for my modest set up. It makes my system sound so much more truly realistic in a near field application. What a wonderful thing distortion can bring!

One man's way of improving what he hears is another man's distortion. I say. Just leave them be. Let them feel that their distortion is better than yours.