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So now I have to worry about "dirty electricity"??
So now I have to worry about "dirty electricity"??
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Old 15th December 2009, 05:14 AM   #11
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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So now I have to worry about "dirty electricity"??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
One of the most important issues... as most electronic products use full wave rectifiers... is just where do all those negative half cycles go
Fullwave rectifiers rectify on both half cycles so the negative half cycle goes to exactly the same place as the positive. The problem arises with half wave rectifiers... Note that many lamp dimmers (incandescent) are half wave unfortunately. Half wave rectifiers can result in measurable dc on the power line and transformers and motors don't like that much..
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Last edited by kevinkr; 15th December 2009 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 15th December 2009, 05:01 PM   #12
amt is offline amt  United States
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From what I gather, DC feeding back into the AC line creates much of the noise problems but as to the radiation factor of a particular device, is it a proximity issue regarding each particular unit or is it a whole house cummulative level? It seems that the WiFi transmissions, AC lines as well as PC, CFL cell phone radiations, etc are all lumped into one large hazard.

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Old 16th December 2009, 03:34 AM   #13
Johnloudb is offline Johnloudb  United States
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Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
Yes, argued, but never demonstrated.

Correlation is not causality.

You can find a direct relationship between a person's heighth and their SAT scores. Given that 5 year olds are generally a lot less tall than 18 year olds, this should not be surprising, yet, the correlation exists.
I think most people including those investigating these problems are well aware that other factors cause cancer. I guess some people feel that we shouldn't take some simple precautions unless there is iron clad proof that there is a significant danger.

Very high frequency EMF like x-rays (ionizing radiation) can cause cancer and that is a fact.

Quote:
Dirty power is not something radiated into you, it is noise on the power line that has the potential to cause noise on your audio gear, little sparkles on your video imagery, and so on.
They sure do radiate into you. So, does all the RF signals being transmitted in our world.

How much depends on the the power associated with the noise. I don't know if there is a risk with these "transient" EMF noise on power lines. Depends on the frequency and power of the noise as well as time of exposure. Would it be terrible if people started using shielded wire for power?

Energy efficient fluorescent lighting can burn your skin if in close proximity to it for an extended period of time. That's a fact. Though that's probably caused by UV light radiation.

Last edited by Johnloudb; 16th December 2009 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 16th December 2009, 06:39 AM   #14
Corben is offline Corben
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Originally Posted by Johnloudb View Post
I think most people including those investigating these problems are well aware that other factors cause cancer. I guess some people feel that we shouldn't take some simple precautions unless there is iron clad proof that there is a significant danger.
I think that the issue here is that people would like at least some evidence that there actually might be a risk, before investing time and money on fixing problems that likely don't exist, especially since there are real risks that could be fixed with those resources, like traffic safety issues.

It's unfortunate that you don't remember the details of the story, because I believe it would be a good case example of the sort of nonsense that certain media outlets peddle all the time. How many cases of cancer would you need to have to have a statistical significant rate of cancer in the school to say that you have a problem? Something like 5 in one year might seem a lot, when the average is probably a lot less than 1, but it would be well within expectable numbers. Also you mentioned that the school building was new. Cancer takes years to develop, so how could they have caught cancer from EM in the new building that they just recently moved into?

There are people who are utterly convinced that low power non-ionizing EM causes all sorts of ailments and those people won't let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of their crusade; their delusions fueled by scandal-seeking media and populist politicians. Fortunately there are also people who are doing real studies on the issue, but they don't get so much media attention.
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Old 16th December 2009, 05:58 PM   #15
Johnloudb is offline Johnloudb  United States
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Corben,

I agree with you about the media and alarmists and such. Just saying that if there is a concern, that say high levels of high frequency EMFs at a school are causing health problems, it should be looked at seriously.

Here's the article, and it is qualified with a question mark in the title. We're not throwing out all our compact fluorescent bulbs yet.

Electromagnetic Fields and Your Health - Prevention.com

Here is something I found interesting in the article on page 4:

Quote:
Electrical hypersensitivity (EHS) is becoming more widespread.

Symptoms of EHS, a recently identified condition, include fatigue, facial irritation (resembling rosacea), tinnitus, dizziness, and digestive disturbances, which occur after exposure to visual display units, mobile phones, WiFi equipment, and commonplace appliances. Experts say up to 3% of all people are clinically hypersensitive, as many as one-third of us to a lesser degree.
You might find this funny ... Ha, Ha, Ha? But having dealt with hyperacusis, tinnitus and global brain sensitivity for the past 12 years, I'm perfectly open to this. Who's to say the brain can't pick up and respond to these signals. Or it could also be a phobic reaction too, I don't know.

You ask an ENT about treatment for tinnitus or hyperacusis (increased sensitivity to sounds) and most will tell you it's permanent and there's not much you can do. Absolutely not true. Same for neurologists who tell their patients that neuropathy is permanent. There is a lot of ignorance (or lack of understanding) on both sides of the isle.

The truth is we don't yet know if there is a correlation between high frequency (non-ionizing) EMFs and more studies need to be done. The studies that I've seen mentioned on the internet only dealt with the low frequency EMFs commonly found in homes at the time. But, home environments are changing.

Here are some links on EMF and cancer at the national cancer institute. No proof yet that there is any connection:

Cellular Telephone Use and Cancer Risk - National Cancer Institute

Electric and Magnetic Field Exposure (EMF) and Cancer - National Cancer Institute

Last edited by Johnloudb; 16th December 2009 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 17th December 2009, 05:45 PM   #16
gain wire is offline gain wire  Canada
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They sure do radiate into you. So, does all the RF signals being transmitted in our world.
Exactly. The gravity of the effect, as you say, does depend on the intensity of the field, the time of exposure and the rate of exposure.

RF is RF. Microwave ovens are RF. Microwaves bake. RF bakes. RF burns. I'm not making up anything here.

As we all know, MW ovens are used to bake anything containing water in it, even at other frequencies than 2,4GHz.

RF bakes.

Need I say it again?

It probably also mutates cells and triggers diseases(too many to list) and cancer present in our bodies, but that is yet not proven.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 08:51 PM   #17
Doug Plumb is offline Doug Plumb  Canada
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Dirty electricity usually means harmonics and strange effects due to varying and possibly non linear loads.

Then there is electromagnetic radiation, which supposedly is very bad or some people think cell phones can cause brain cancer and tumors, I have heard from reliable sources (political news) that using a cell phone can increase brain temperature by one degree. I wonder how this could work - there isn't the energy to cause that effect directly, but it may trigger something else.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 08:58 PM   #18
SY is offline SY  United States
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So now I have to worry about "dirty electricity"??
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I have heard from reliable sources (political news) that using a cell phone can increase brain temperature by one degree.
Not-so-reliable sources.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 09:32 PM   #19
wakibaki is offline wakibaki  United Kingdom
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It's interesting to note that permitted radio exposure levels in the Soviet Union were a fraction of those permitted in the West. Of course these low levels were often exceeded in practise as their equipment was often crude by comparison. Still, these levels were set by their medical profession in the absence of commercial pressure. They were obviously precautionary to a degree, but at the same time, the people setting them thought they were justified for one reason or another. If we had followed them we sure as hell wouldn't have mobiles now.

I think the dangers of radio are exaggerated by the anti-phone-mast lobby, there's a known mechanism causing damage in the case of ionising radiation, but you'd have to work hard to feel that you'd got good evidence to work with now, the waters have been muddied (in some cases deliberately) by numerous interested parties.

If there is a health risk it is from permitted emissions rather than EMI tho'. EMI is, however, a serious threat to comms and nobody should lightly create circuits causing a load of EMI. I think that qualifies as 'tarnishing the Golden Rule'.

w

I once drilled a little hole in my fingernail with the RF from a 12 Watt HF radio. That had an antenna tuner tho'. 12 Watts. I treated the 200 Watt ones with a bit more respect after that.

Last edited by wakibaki; 22nd December 2009 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 12:18 AM   #20
Doug Plumb is offline Doug Plumb  Canada
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"Not-so-reliable sources. "

I think maybe some people have way to much faith in our scientific establishment to make a statement like that. Just because people are scientists does not make their public opinions scientific. If there is a danger with electromagnetic or electropotential radiation, I would bet there is a huge and very powerful interest to cover it up. Science has become political science in the universities. There is no shortage of scientists that will say that, even before climate gate, Al Gore and his melting polar bears.
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