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Old 23rd February 2003, 01:43 AM   #11
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10



I think that the loudspeaker, even having the greatest range of "colour" is still the least important part of a hifi.
Cool. Everyone go get the windows opened, please. This is getting hot

I guest planet 10 is a fan of rock?

That halojoy’s mini DynAudio wouldn’t count to his taste, would it? I’ll bet planet 10’s speaker has the size of at least 4 times halojoy’s.
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Old 23rd February 2003, 02:47 AM   #12
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Default Re: ???

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
...what good is it sending a perfectly good signal through a no good speaker?
This is where people often mis-interpret this point-of-view. You still need a good speaker... but i know good ones can be had for even just a couple hundred bucks (hell -- with good scavenging and build your own boxes a good speaker can be assembled for less than $50) -- perhaps a bit bandwidth limited at these levels but fortuneatly most of the music is in the midrange.

Everything is important, but the least important is the speaker.

Quote:
I would dedicate at least half of the budget to the speakers.
Half is far to much to spend on speakers* ... i could see spending half on a source in a budget system. (and have people come up to me 20 years after the fact and thank me for selling them the $2k system where half was spent on the Linn LP12)

* unless you count the amps & electronic XO as part of the speaker

dave
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Old 23rd February 2003, 02:56 AM   #13
fdegrove is offline fdegrove  Europe
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Default SPEAKERS.

Hi,

Quote:
* unless you count the amps & electronic XO as part of the speaker
Oh no...I wouldn't push it that far.

Let's just say I was talking on behalf of "Joe Average" ...not the enlightened "Frugalphile".

Don't forget where we come from Dave...in order to distinguish you need to have some reference/experience.

Cheers,
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Old 23rd February 2003, 01:02 PM   #14
kelticwizard is offline kelticwizard  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
Sch3matic and Kelticwizard,

I don’t think there’s such a strong DNA transfer from our great great grandparent so that the ancient situation apply to us now. In my situation, the opposite is even truer. Whistles, car horns, well no, this is ridiculous.
Not applying to car horns, of course, but there is a very strong DNA transfer from our ancestors to us indeed. This is through the genes. If your ancestors have given you the genes for a certain trait, then you have that trait.

What you have to understand is that through most of humankind's time here on Earth, civilization did not exist. Nor did farming. Living in small groups of perhaps a dozen or so, humans were absolutely dependent on hunting and gathering-going into the wild and emerging with enough food to survive another day or two. A few bad days or weeks in a row, and people begin to die.

In such a scenario, people with just a little advantage over their neighbors will begin to survive enough to pass their traits onto their offspring. Those without the desirable trait will tend to die off and produce less offspring. As a result, the human population as a whole will, after several generations, adopt the desirable traits.

Acuteness of hearing, especially in certain ranges, is an advantage that helped some of our ancestors make it over their less well-equipped neighbors. This is why we hear some frequencies more acutely than others. Ability to hear those frequencies alerted our forefathers that either danger or a potential meal was nearby. More of those with acute hearing survived, had children, who had children, etc., who eventually produced us.

I think that the same could be extended to Sch3mat1c's idea of primal feeling when hearing low frequencies. Humans are very large animals, but there are others that are larger. Until such time as we developed weapons capable of bringing down lions, bears, etc., we were prey for these animals.

Obviously, then, the individuals who had a sensitivity to these vibrations were able to take evasive action before their colleagues who were less able to sense the low frequency energy. Just a split second can frequently make the difference. Considering that we are talking life-and-death situations here, why is it hard for Jay to consider that this could be the basis for our emotional response to low frequency sounds?
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Old 23rd February 2003, 01:53 PM   #15
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Default The source or the speaker???

Speaker is important, and so is the source. It is the amplifier that is not. But what if the RCA cable is made up from 24 gauge aluminium wire? Is then cable important too? Off course, but that’s not what we are talking about.

The bottleneck is in the speaker and in the source. In situation A, the speaker will be the bottleneck, in situation B the source will. Which one is having the most probability to be the bottleneck? Like probability theory, we must set a pre-determined assumption. Should we limit our analysis to audiophile community? Or may be to a universal audio community?. You have to remember, that if you use a Linn, you are in the minority. Your situation may not apply to “average” that uses Sony compo.

Thus, you may agree that putting the Linn LP12 and the $50 speaker at the same frame is not relevant.

If you want to build an audio system, how much budget you will allocate to the speaker? 50%? Assume that your budget is $100. What will you do? You will buy the $50 speaker from Dave. How about the other $50? Sure you cannot buy a Lynn, so buy the cheapest CD player available! (you cannot find any turntable that match the cheapest CD player in the same price level), and build a 50W IC based amplifier (TDA7295 already has a good ripple rejection so you don’t have to build sophisticated PS regulator. And what you need is a single cheap 12V “E” transformer for both channel). Is above approach acceptable, in that you will get the best sounding system from $100?

If your budget is $5K, how would you split the budget to the source, amplifier, and speaker? Will you buy a Linn and use a $50 speaker?Speaker is important, and so is the source. It is the amplifier that is not. But what if the RCA cable is made up from 24 gauge aluminium wire? Is then cable important too? Off course, but that’s not what we are talking about.
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Old 23rd February 2003, 02:38 PM   #16
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally posted by kelticwizard

In such a scenario, people with just a little advantage over their neighbors will begin to survive enough to pass their traits onto their offspring. Those without the desirable trait will tend to die off and produce less offspring. As a result, the human population as a whole will, after several generations, adopt the desirable traits.

Obviously, then, the individuals who had a sensitivity to these vibrations were able to take evasive action before their colleagues who were less able to sense the low frequency energy. Just a split second can frequently make the difference. Considering that we are talking life-and-death situations here, why is it hard for Jay to consider that this could be the basis for our emotional response to low frequency sounds?
Hmmm, I think I just followed the same logic of thinking. People with little advantage over their neighbors will begin to survive and pass their traits onto their offspring, right? As a result, after several generations the human adopt desirable traits, right?

In the era where human is close to monkey (At least this is what they believe), giraffes have short neck, right? But because trees are very tall at the moment, the longer necks lived longer and pass the genes to the offspring, right? So that is why all giraffes have long neck nowadays, right?.

I did can follow the logic behind such idea. The whole message is even simpler: evolution, traits heritage. But it doesn’t mean that I believe that they are reasons why giraffes’ neck are very long. Nor I believe that my great parents were monkeys. Even worse, that Adam and Eva were both monkeys. Not that I don’t want to admit that I came from an animal, but there are a lot of flaws behind the logic.
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Old 23rd February 2003, 05:54 PM   #17
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Default Gromanswe,

Halojoy,

I have checked the www.gameknot.com rules, and noticed that the minimum time threshold for 1 move is 3 days.

The problem is I can feed each move to a computer software, so that basically my opponents play with my computer.

You can find such software, which equivalent to at least 2100 Elo rating (International Master).

I used to win over Fritz and ChessMaster 2000. And as far as I can remember, with CM2000 you can simulate a game starting from any position you set up.
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Old 23rd February 2003, 06:24 PM   #18
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Default Re: The source or the speaker???

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
Speaker is important, and so is the source. It is the amplifier that is not.
Everything is important. Amps too. I put amps as more important than speakers thou.

Quote:
Like probability theory, we must set a pre-determined assumption. Should we limit our analysis to audiophile community? Or may be to a universal audio community?. You have to remember, that if you use a Linn, you are in the minority. Your situation may not apply to "average" that uses Sony compo.
I have a background in stats, i had to sell my Linn, and i'd only ever consider a Sony if i found it used and was putting together a $100 system or needed the Power Trans & heatsinks.

Quote:
Thus, you may agree that putting the Linn LP12 and the $50 speaker at the same frame is not relevant.
Totally relevant. It was a pr of <$200 CAD ($130 USD) speakers that introed me to the beauty of full-ranges & small tube amps. The Linn was an integral part of that intro... and i lived with my <$50 geek fest specials in that system for a while too.

Quote:
If you want to build an audio system, how much budget you will allocate to the speaker? 50%? Assume that your budget is $100. What will you do?
Pull a set of my 2-buck drivers from the stash (cost up to $10) scavenge some wood from the cabinet shop dumpster, add one of my budget TTs ($50-75 with cart) and the hard part -- finding a decent sounding little amp or receiver (but i know some of the sleepers) ... wait you are probably talking USD, which means i can sub in that NAD 3020 i have (and maybe scare up a better cart).

Putting together a CD based system as good as this is a real challenge because good CD players are few & far between. There are a lotta used ones thou. A little tweaking can help thou. Add the same speakers (leave out the optional helper tweeter so we aren't annoyed by the high frequency problems on the CD player), and then find an old console tube amp to clean up -- prefereably SE as the colorations in the amp tend to counter the defincincies of the CD player.

Quote:
You will buy the $50 speaker from Dave.
The $50 speaker if bought from Dave is the $10 speaker above -- the key to a decent Frugal-phile (tm) system is a large dose of DIY and some clever sourcing of bits (nothing helps like finding that $2 pr of tunnel reflex speakers at the thrift store to savage for drivers (or similar))

Quote:
If your budget is $5K, how would you split the budget to the source, amplifier, and speaker? Will you buy a Linn and use a $50 speaker?Speaker is important, and so is the source. It is the amplifier that is not. But what if the RCA cable is made up from 24 gauge aluminium wire? Is then cable important too? Off course, but that’s not what we are talking about.
$5k -- only in my dreams ... but i'd start with a good TT, a Teres or Redrock kit perhaps (with a reasonable arm & cart that is half the budget)

and why 24g aluminum when you could salvage some plenum grade CAT 5 from a computer store or installation.

dave
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Old 23rd February 2003, 07:07 PM   #19
pinkmouse is offline pinkmouse  Europe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
Even worse, that Adam and Eva were both monkeys. Not that I don’t want to admit that I came from an animal, but there are a lot of flaws behind the logic.
No, the thing to bear in mind was that your ancestor and the monkey's ancestor were the same, monkeys have evolved just as much as humans, but in different ways!
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Old 23rd February 2003, 07:30 PM   #20
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinkmouse
No, the thing to bear in mind was that your ancestor and the monkey's ancestor were the same, monkeys have evolved just as much as humans, but in different ways!
Pinkmouse, you are even cleverer than Charles Darwin!
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