However I would still have a little voice reminding me that I have passive probes connected to a set of tubes - one side +320V the other -320V and the Pico connected to my computer USB port. The siglent claim to cope with 300-600V depending on the range selected.
Differential probes would add around 4-5 kilovolt isolation but double the price of a pico.
Surely a low power oscilloscope is a sound card? With the benefit of the sound card being connected directly onto the PCI bus? Being on a Mac.. you have USB or Thunderbolt. Both will end up being costly as an external device.
Hmm looking at the EVBlogs for these - there's some interesting differences between the 1202X-E the 1104X-E and the 1104U variant. In short the U has a redesigned and simplified 100MHz only and 250MS/s on 3/4ch. Compare that to the 1104X that does quad 500MS/s and can be hacked to 200MHz, it can be upgraded with soft licences.
The 1202X-E seems to be the PCB before the 1104X-E, sharing the same frontend that can do 500mV. The simplified front end of the 1104X-U cannot do the lower 500mV and has a higher noise floor.
So the 1202 seems a better deal atm, although a 1104X-E would also be useful. I think I'll avoid the 1104X-U.
I have 3 Picoscopes and can vouch for their software. It's very good. You can do more than any native scope.
User experience of a pc controlled scope is not as good as knobs. As for protection it has not been an issue if you do not do something silly like connect a ground clip to a power supply. Same for any scope with few exceptions.
User experience of a pc controlled scope is not as good as knobs. As for protection it has not been an issue if you do not do something silly like connect a ground clip to a power supply. Same for any scope with few exceptions.
Being an ex-Mac developer.. This response from the PICO team on their website recently means I'd be concerned how long the software will work with the hardware and how long that will then work with MacOS: "The latest version of the Mac OSX software is intended for OSes Sierra to Mojave. If you don't want to, or can't update your Mac OS"
It's software is "platform independent" however you still need PICO support to span the software releases and the OS releases. Add to this - if the app is signed (PICO being an apple developer) at some point that certificate will expire. As long as the MacOS supports running expired certificate signed software.. which may not be in 10 years time.
I'd prefer something in a box so I don't have to rely on apple and PICO to support. Now you could run linux but the VM USB support is single threaded (Virtualbox) so it won't be as fast as a native build.
Don't get me wrong - the thought of PICO would be an idea.. but the software support and the lack of twiddling of dials is a little annoying.
It's software is "platform independent" however you still need PICO support to span the software releases and the OS releases. Add to this - if the app is signed (PICO being an apple developer) at some point that certificate will expire. As long as the MacOS supports running expired certificate signed software.. which may not be in 10 years time.
I'd prefer something in a box so I don't have to rely on apple and PICO to support. Now you could run linux but the VM USB support is single threaded (Virtualbox) so it won't be as fast as a native build.
Don't get me wrong - the thought of PICO would be an idea.. but the software support and the lack of twiddling of dials is a little annoying.
As a long time Mac User I had to go Windows recently as my old Macbook Pro is now stuck on an old version of OSX.
To be fair the MAC and LInux software is some way behind the current Windows flavour. However I can do stuff with the Picoscope that I could not do with an "affordable" dedicated 'scope. Since retiring I have had to self fund my equipment and have had several bad experiences buying S/H oscilloscopes.
All that being said I fully understand your point.
Two of my Picoscopes are 20 years old with parallel port interfaces. They work with Win 10 as long as you have a parallel port of the right type (no USB emulations). I would not make the effort to fire up a PC of that vintage but the utility of the Picoscope is still there.
I'm not sure how destructive Win 11 will be. I'm bracing for it.
I'm not sure how destructive Win 11 will be. I'm bracing for it.
I've been looking at possibly getting a new 'scope. Currently using a 100Mhz analogue one that will be around 28 years old now.
It seems to me that resolution is everything here when talking of digital one and that 8 bit is by far the most common. That to me leaves a lot to be desired.
Any thoughts on these, they are a Farnell 'own brand':
https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mp720106/dso-200mhz-1gsps-1-7ns/dp/3228047
There is a 14 bit 200Mhz model which also has a signal generator/arbitrary waveform generator and DVM built in. Very unusually (to me) it also has a battery power option.
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3215892.pdf
There is also a cheaper 12 bit 100Mhz model:
https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mp720024-eu-uk/dso-2-1-ch-100mhz-20mpts-500msps/dp/3107582
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2816290.pdf
These seem (to me anyway) far better specced than many of the usual suspects.
It seems to me that resolution is everything here when talking of digital one and that 8 bit is by far the most common. That to me leaves a lot to be desired.
Any thoughts on these, they are a Farnell 'own brand':
https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mp720106/dso-200mhz-1gsps-1-7ns/dp/3228047
There is a 14 bit 200Mhz model which also has a signal generator/arbitrary waveform generator and DVM built in. Very unusually (to me) it also has a battery power option.
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3215892.pdf
There is also a cheaper 12 bit 100Mhz model:
https://uk.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mp720024-eu-uk/dso-2-1-ch-100mhz-20mpts-500msps/dp/3107582
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2816290.pdf
These seem (to me anyway) far better specced than many of the usual suspects.
Attachments
Speaking from experience- I have not encountered a situation where I needed more than the 8 bits of the 1104x-e I have. That really comes into play with FFT spectra. And there are better spectrum analyzers if that is what you need. I'm not sure what you would see in those extra bits that's not noise almost all the time. Conversely, for audio, 14 bits is not enough to see the low level junk (even though it was enough for first gen CD's).
FWIW I got a tinySA tinySA | Main / HomePage for around $80. Its not as capable as my Tek 7S12 but 3 orders of magnitude more convenient. And a good soundcard will get you an audio frequency spectrum analyzer that is much more capable for audio than any scope or SA.
Once you get into the over $1k range there are new Tek scopes and very highly regarded Keysight instruments you should look at. Service at that price is important also since fixing any of these current instruments is borderline impossible. Its like fixing a phone's motherboard. Lots of the parts are almost invisible to the naked eye.
FWIW I got a tinySA tinySA | Main / HomePage for around $80. Its not as capable as my Tek 7S12 but 3 orders of magnitude more convenient. And a good soundcard will get you an audio frequency spectrum analyzer that is much more capable for audio than any scope or SA.
Once you get into the over $1k range there are new Tek scopes and very highly regarded Keysight instruments you should look at. Service at that price is important also since fixing any of these current instruments is borderline impossible. Its like fixing a phone's motherboard. Lots of the parts are almost invisible to the naked eye.
Ok I've pretty much made up my mind - SDS1202E-X.
Although only 2 channels, that will do for audio I'm also hedging my bets with doing DSD hence having 200MHz supports 20-30MHz square waves. The square wave quality isn't brilliant Running 10x on the probes gives 600V max (dc+ac).
I've heard that the SDS series in 2017 had problems with signals below 200Hz, so I'm hoping to find confirmation that the issue is fixed in later firmware/serial numbers.
Although only 2 channels, that will do for audio I'm also hedging my bets with doing DSD hence having 200MHz supports 20-30MHz square waves. The square wave quality isn't brilliant Running 10x on the probes gives 600V max (dc+ac).
I've heard that the SDS series in 2017 had problems with signals below 200Hz, so I'm hoping to find confirmation that the issue is fixed in later firmware/serial numbers.
Hi,
@NickKUK: good choice
In case You don´t know already, more or less important differences to the 4-channel SDS1xx4X-E are:
- no Webserver --> allowing for easy remote control via LAN from Your PC
- missing Bode-plotting capability in collaboration with a function generator (preferably a Sigent)
- 4-channel capability of course ... and some more
Before ticking the buy button evaluate if some of the differences might be decisively useful for You.
I returned a 1202X-E once against a 1104X-E because of the missing Webserver.
btw. I never had probs with freqs <200Hz. Iirc that issue had been solved in one of their first updates.
@Mooly: these scopes look loke Owon OEMs. Do they really sample with 14bit hardware wise?
I think they achieve higher resolution by oversampling only at the cost of reduced bandwidth.
Isn´t that similar to ´High Resolution´ or ERES used by other companies?
The quality of a modern scope shines or falls with its firmware, firmware-updating and the implementation of it´s UI.
I wouldn´t trust the really cheap chinese manufactureres like Hantek, Owon, etc, to correct for bugs in their firmware.
Just take a look at their websites if and how often they updated their devices (if their websites are running at all).
A former colleague of mine bought a Hantek function generator just by its hardware specs ... well that thing is a piece of useless crap by its firmware and UI .... and no patches or updates since years
Rather invest a few bucks more into a device that You can handle easily.
jauu
Calvin
ps: regarding service. Over at EEVblog there´s talk about that Keysight is going to refuse service to private customers and even small businesses (maybe regionally, maybe worldwide?).
They still advertise and sell to privates and students though.
@NickKUK: good choice
In case You don´t know already, more or less important differences to the 4-channel SDS1xx4X-E are:
- no Webserver --> allowing for easy remote control via LAN from Your PC
- missing Bode-plotting capability in collaboration with a function generator (preferably a Sigent)
- 4-channel capability of course ... and some more
Before ticking the buy button evaluate if some of the differences might be decisively useful for You.
I returned a 1202X-E once against a 1104X-E because of the missing Webserver.
btw. I never had probs with freqs <200Hz. Iirc that issue had been solved in one of their first updates.
@Mooly: these scopes look loke Owon OEMs. Do they really sample with 14bit hardware wise?
I think they achieve higher resolution by oversampling only at the cost of reduced bandwidth.
Isn´t that similar to ´High Resolution´ or ERES used by other companies?
The quality of a modern scope shines or falls with its firmware, firmware-updating and the implementation of it´s UI.
I wouldn´t trust the really cheap chinese manufactureres like Hantek, Owon, etc, to correct for bugs in their firmware.
Just take a look at their websites if and how often they updated their devices (if their websites are running at all).
A former colleague of mine bought a Hantek function generator just by its hardware specs ... well that thing is a piece of useless crap by its firmware and UI .... and no patches or updates since years
Rather invest a few bucks more into a device that You can handle easily.
jauu
Calvin
ps: regarding service. Over at EEVblog there´s talk about that Keysight is going to refuse service to private customers and even small businesses (maybe regionally, maybe worldwide?).
They still advertise and sell to privates and students though.
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Hi,
@NickKUK: good choice
In case You don´t know already, more or less important differences to the 4-channel SDS1xx4X-E are:
- no Webserver --> allowing for easy remote control via LAN from Your PC
- missing Bode-plotting capability in collaboration with a function generator (preferably a Sigent)
- 4-channel capability of course ... and some more
Before ticking the buy button evaluate if some of the differences might be decisively useful for You.
I returned a 1202X-E once against a 1104X-E because of the missing Webserver.
The web server is on the 200MHz 4ch version only, which I suppose is down to the cramp screen with four traces going, especially in digital decoding mode.
A bode plot would be useful for AF.. there's a guy that's made a Arduino AWG that works with the Siglent SDS1104X-E: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E: Bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG - Page 1 how noisy that would be is anyone's guess.
What would be useful is a bode plot for checking higher frequency for the DSD amp I have planned.
Also..
Seems there's more activity with regard to 4 channel firmware. The 1202 has a last update in 2019, so I wonder if that model will be discontinued soon in favour of the 4ch market given most people don't seem to want over 100MHz. Any defects in the 1202 aren't going to be fixed anytime soon. Also the move to castrate the 4ch new 1104X-U for 100Mhz only hardware, cheaper and worse noise only unhackable seems to align with that they make their money from the 1104 series.
On the 100MHz to 200MHz hack, it appears that the later firmware is starting to prevent this:
By removing some of the commands it demonstrates they're attempting to prevent this in the firmware. Given it's Linux, it would probably be easy enough to install the correct files back into the operating system but should they start using signed firmware using the cryptographic 'safe code' style extensions in the FPGA ARM core then it could start becoming very difficult.
What I believe has lead to this was a 2018 security note that indicated the hardcoding of accounts and passwords - essentially making it easy for a hacker to simply use the oscilloscope as a base of operations within the organisation.
The 2018 firmware security patch then removed, as you would do as security, the operations and account backdoors that the upgrade hack has allowed. If you use the 100->200Mhz hackable firmware then your oscilloscope is a security risk to your organisation.
Going forward therefore it is understandable why siglent has removed the components but this means no more 'unofficial hacking' of features in the new firmware versions (without bespoke firmware versions).
Security note: Siglent Technologies SDS 1202X-E Digital Oscilloscope 5.1.3.13 Hardcoded Credentials - CXSecurity.com
EVBlog of gnashing teeth: Siglent SDS1104X-E Hack to 200Mhz， and full options ? - Page 10
So the days for this freebie are numbered if you want updates for bug fixes etc.
I also had multiple problems people are reporting, and after reading a lot I found the solution. I had to downgrade first.
By removing some of the commands it demonstrates they're attempting to prevent this in the firmware. Given it's Linux, it would probably be easy enough to install the correct files back into the operating system but should they start using signed firmware using the cryptographic 'safe code' style extensions in the FPGA ARM core then it could start becoming very difficult.
What I believe has lead to this was a 2018 security note that indicated the hardcoding of accounts and passwords - essentially making it easy for a hacker to simply use the oscilloscope as a base of operations within the organisation.
The 2018 firmware security patch then removed, as you would do as security, the operations and account backdoors that the upgrade hack has allowed. If you use the 100->200Mhz hackable firmware then your oscilloscope is a security risk to your organisation.
Going forward therefore it is understandable why siglent has removed the components but this means no more 'unofficial hacking' of features in the new firmware versions (without bespoke firmware versions).
Security note: Siglent Technologies SDS 1202X-E Digital Oscilloscope 5.1.3.13 Hardcoded Credentials - CXSecurity.com
EVBlog of gnashing teeth: Siglent SDS1104X-E Hack to 200Mhz， and full options ? - Page 10
So the days for this freebie are numbered if you want updates for bug fixes etc.
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You can pay peanuts for a cheap USB scope/spectrum analyser on ebay.
They work but often bandwidth isnt what they claim.
i.e. 10 mega samples will only be about 500KHz given it takes about 20-30 samples to make a decent waveform on the screen.
I went with a cheap second hand analogue scope and use that the most.
The usb scope comes out for looking at model railway DCC digital signals when debugging my model railway systems.
How is the performance with a 24MHz square wave? Are you using the standard 1104X-E probes?
Hi,
The web server is on both 4-channel scopes, the 100MHz and the 200MHz version.
The 100MHz differs only in that a filter with the reduced bandwidth is switched into the signal path via software/firmware and a different name-sticker is tagged to the frontplate.
All else is identical.
jauu
Calvin
The web server is on both 4-channel scopes, the 100MHz and the 200MHz version.
The 100MHz differs only in that a filter with the reduced bandwidth is switched into the signal path via software/firmware and a different name-sticker is tagged to the frontplate.
All else is identical.
jauu
Calvin