I've been resisting, but finally I've been overcome by the urge to buy a table saw.
I don't need anything massively fancy so I'm looking at contractor saws such as the DeWalt DW745 which reportedly has an excellent, accurate fence.
But I have a nagging at the back of my mind to buy an equivalent Sawstop model (no doubt from their excellent marketing department) because of the statement "you'll regret not buying one when you see your fingers on the floor". Scaremongering can be quite effective.
So.
For $825aud I can get the DeWalt with it's very good fence
or $2000aud for the Sawstop with a fence that is only anchored at one end and (reportedly) wobbles.
Is the safety feature of the Sawstop worth the extra $1175 for what is otherwise an inferior product?
Are there any other equal price range TS you would recommend?
I don't need anything massively fancy so I'm looking at contractor saws such as the DeWalt DW745 which reportedly has an excellent, accurate fence.
But I have a nagging at the back of my mind to buy an equivalent Sawstop model (no doubt from their excellent marketing department) because of the statement "you'll regret not buying one when you see your fingers on the floor". Scaremongering can be quite effective.
So.
For $825aud I can get the DeWalt with it's very good fence
or $2000aud for the Sawstop with a fence that is only anchored at one end and (reportedly) wobbles.
Is the safety feature of the Sawstop worth the extra $1175 for what is otherwise an inferior product?
Are there any other equal price range TS you would recommend?
I have a Ridgid saw , they call it a hybrid, it is heavier than a contractor saw, but has castor sytem to lift it and let you roll it out of the way whennot in use. I like it a lot compared to other saws i have had.
It took a while get it set up square , but that is probably the norm for any in the price range.
It took a while get it set up square , but that is probably the norm for any in the price range.
The finger bit ain't so inaccurate. In the U.S. They exceed 30,000 per year from table saws. Now if you allow for say 10% of the population uses one in any given year that would yield a chance of 30,000/32,500,000. Next multiply that by say 50 for the life of the saw. Next put a value on having a right thumb. Me I like mine and would figure it is really worth twice the insurance industries value of $125,000.
So work the math. That puts the added value around $11,000.00!
That is why I changed from a Delta Unisaw that has been a standard for decades to a Felder moving table type of saw. The price increase was more than $25,000.00. (More than one person uses my saw.)
From what I have seen the Saw Stop used pretty much the same structure as a Unisaw which has the fence only clamped at the front. Only once had a problem with the fence and that was the operator. Of course he was missing a bit of finger from wearing gloves around a saw. Really didn't learn. Of course he taught shop!
The secret to getting straight cuts in plywood is to be sure the blade has it's set right. When circular blades are packaged on cardboard and inside a plastic film, they can be damaged if shipped wrong! Take a box of blades and throw it on the floor. This will slightly bend all the teeth on the bottom of the blades. Do this a few times and none of the blades will cut straight until the visit a good resharpener.
When you send your blades out to resharpen only pack a few at a time well secured with corrugated cardboard between the blades.
So work the math. That puts the added value around $11,000.00!
That is why I changed from a Delta Unisaw that has been a standard for decades to a Felder moving table type of saw. The price increase was more than $25,000.00. (More than one person uses my saw.)
From what I have seen the Saw Stop used pretty much the same structure as a Unisaw which has the fence only clamped at the front. Only once had a problem with the fence and that was the operator. Of course he was missing a bit of finger from wearing gloves around a saw. Really didn't learn. Of course he taught shop!
The secret to getting straight cuts in plywood is to be sure the blade has it's set right. When circular blades are packaged on cardboard and inside a plastic film, they can be damaged if shipped wrong! Take a box of blades and throw it on the floor. This will slightly bend all the teeth on the bottom of the blades. Do this a few times and none of the blades will cut straight until the visit a good resharpener.
When you send your blades out to resharpen only pack a few at a time well secured with corrugated cardboard between the blades.
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The Sawstop is rated by users as an excellent cabinet saw and has the added advantage of saving your fingers or hand to a moment of inattention. Only you can decide how the risk vs. cost balance works out for you. Since you are considering the Sawstop you must have room for a cabinet saw. If you don't think you want to shell out that much then a solid used Unisaw or 1980s or earlier Delta Contractor's saw is by far the best bang for the buck option. They can be had for a few hundred dollars and you can find everything you need to know about refurbishing and maintaining them at the Old Woodworking Machinery website:
Old Woodworking Machines - Index page
Oh and don't bother going there for advice on a newer tool or an Asian knockoff...not allowed.
Old Woodworking Machines - Index page
Oh and don't bother going there for advice on a newer tool or an Asian knockoff...not allowed.
Unfortunately my space is limited, so I need something that can be 'put away'.
Sawstop do a contractor saw, similar size as the DeWalt: Saw Stop Jobsite Saw 2100W | Tablesaws - Carbatec
As someone who plays guitar and knows of a great banjo player who lost some fingers, the idea that a $2000 saw could save you, makes it a no brainer.
That said, there is no replacement for proper safety measures in the shop. Accidents can and do happen, and the best way to be prepared is to be safe. I understand we do things that require safety implements to be removed to make a certain cut etc... but then you put it back.
I can think of several near misses where I knew I was doing something wrong or unsafe before it happened. Almost like a premonition. Those experiences stay with you and shape your behavior in the shop. I was lucky enough they were near misses and not serious incidents. If they had gone worse, I'd have liked having a Saw Stop as piece of mind.
Also, I have a coworker with short stubby fingers who swears by his Stop Saw... The closer you gotta get, the closer you are to the blade
That said, there is no replacement for proper safety measures in the shop. Accidents can and do happen, and the best way to be prepared is to be safe. I understand we do things that require safety implements to be removed to make a certain cut etc... but then you put it back.
I can think of several near misses where I knew I was doing something wrong or unsafe before it happened. Almost like a premonition. Those experiences stay with you and shape your behavior in the shop. I was lucky enough they were near misses and not serious incidents. If they had gone worse, I'd have liked having a Saw Stop as piece of mind.
Also, I have a coworker with short stubby fingers who swears by his Stop Saw... The closer you gotta get, the closer you are to the blade
Actual loss of digits averages at around 4-5000 per year: • Number of amputations preformed due to table saw blade injuries 2015 | Statistic
But even lacerations can ruin your day/month/year!
I wonder what proportion of those injuries are from kickback (which the SS doesn't protect against any differently to other saws).
I also wonder how many of these accidents have happened with the sub-$75 plastic benchtop tablesaws?
I've read quite a few threads where people have had dramas with the fence being wobbly, inaccurate etc. I know that often review sites give an unrepresentative cross-section of experiences because happy users are less likely to make the effort to write a review. But I have felt the similar set up on the equivalent Makita and it didn't feel particularly sturdy compared to the rock-solid DeWalt.
Does the increased risk of kickback with the less sturdy fence, negate the benefit of having the SawStop function for when your hand goes into the blade due to kickback..? In other words, will a sturdier fence reduce the likelihood of blade contact (when all other precautions adhered to) in the first place?
Good tip, thanks! I recent bought a new blade for my compound miter saw. Wish I had done it sooner!
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Humans are quite ingenious when it comes to bypassing safety devices. And especially when we are in a rush to get something done.
I have a Delta cabinet saw for maybe 25 years now and like it. I have also used a SawStop. They are well built and of good quality. If I had it to do all over again I would get the SawStop. They do have casters so they can be movable. If you get one of the contractor's saws and use it regularly, I'll bet you will wish you had spent the extra dollars to get a better table saw. And for the SawStop, one trip to ER with a cut hand will more than pay for the incremental cost.
I think there may have been a bit of confusion. It seems the OP is looking at a lighter duty saw than the original.
Even at 4000 thumbs per year it still comes out as more cost effective to buy the safety features.
Personally I think it is a no brainer to go for safety. Any kids going to use it, authorized or not?
Even at 4000 thumbs per year it still comes out as more cost effective to buy the safety features.
Personally I think it is a no brainer to go for safety. Any kids going to use it, authorized or not?
Thanks, that's the kind of information I am looking for.
It's hard because of the big jumps in pricing between categories over here in Oz. I don't know how much use it will get until I get it.
Broadly speaking we have the following price ranges (all in AUD=0.72usd):
<$99 = 'Benchtop' models - awful plasticky junk from the likes of Aldi and Ozito. Will definitely lose a hand using this.
~$200 = Ozito etc. Basic and flimsy. Will probably lose a hand.
~$500 = Ryobi. Getting better but flimsy guards and wobbly, inaccurate fence. Also, horrible luminous green colour
~$600 = Makita jobsite model. Inaccurate fence and poor build quality. 1500w.
~$825 = Dewalt jobsite model. Accurate rack and pinion fence. 1850w.
~$2000 = Sawstop jobsite model. 2100w.
~$2500 = Sawstop Contractor. Fixed base.
~$2000 = Low end 'professional cabinet saw
~$4400 = Sawstop Professional cabinet saw
~$6000+ = Industrial Cabinet saws
I would love a cabinet saw but $$$ for hobby use is hard to justify to the missus!
Yes, it needs to be small enough to be put away (like the jobsite/contractor category) but decent enough that I don't regret buying it. Trying to balance 'buy once, cry once' with being able to justifiably spend the $$ in the first place.
No kids going to use it, but I have a couple of preschool boys who will no doubt want to join in at some point in the future. Workshop power is isolated with a key but still, you never know.
I make it a practice when running a crew on a large job to walk around the project in the first day or two and fire the first guy on my payroll standing on top of a ladder. I provide ladders in all the sizes from 6' to 12' along with scaffolding. The taller ladders are actually no longer sanctioned for use without a safety belt and tie off! You would not be surprised by how the other folks get the hint. I did have one subcontractor have a reportable day off injury a few years back from ladder misuse. Fortunately nothing more than a sprain.
If you ever take a safety course, some of the examples of stupid accidents will amaze you.
In regard to a table saw the design of the push stick is to me quite important. I used a 1.5" wide by 8" long piece of wood. It starts out about 3" high. The bottom is mostly cut away 1/4" except for a 3/4" lip at the back to grasp the edge of the piece being cut. The wide base allows for greater stability. The most important part is the top back edge is completely rounded. The way when it kicks back it not only doesn't cut your hand it pushes it up and out of the way.
I do not like the long stick versions as I find the reduced control makes pieces more likely to fly.
The other important bit is that the blade height should only be high enough to clear the work piece. Some blade manufacturers suggest a nuch higher setting to improve the cutting action.
I have a scar on my right thumb that did not require a hospital visit. So I stand by lower blade height.
Now one of my most important safety rules is the three silly mistake rule. When you make a silly mistake, that is OK and normal. Howevèr when you make a second silly mistake, you are finished. Third silly mistakes often involve blood and hospital visits. My thumb scar came from working in a hurry and ignoring the rule. Now where I work bloody cuts you head to the hospital on the right. Detached pieces the one down the left road. It is very important to preplan what to do when you have an accident. This includes what to do if you can't get yourself to additional help. In the old days we used to post the important phone numbers.
If you have never seen panic stricken actions, during one small shop fire one fellow standing next to a fire extinguisher was looking around and asking where one was! Yes there are many in my shop and they have labels above them. The exits are also marked. In the woodshop there is a hose! We get abound one small fire about every year or two. Never had one make it to any serious stage.
One point, the heavier saws use induction motors - no brushes to wear, less noise, more reliable.
The foldaway saws mostly use brushed motors, personally I really dislike the noise.
Of course any saw is noisy when it actually cuts, but brushed motors just sound and feel "cheap".
There are now a few job site cutoff saws that use brushless battery motors, there may be a table saw version, DeWalt IIRC?
Best wishes
David
Well.. I went for the DeWalt in the end. I'll tell you why:
The Sawstop undoubtedly is a safe saw to use from the perspective of unscheduled digit removal but it basically came down to price. It was a choice between an $850 saw or no table saw because I just could not justify the $2500+ price tag. Plus it seems some of the essential accessories are 'optional' (read $$$) extras.
It was a hard decision to make but ultimately there is no point having a $2500+ table saw for hobby work and not having the money to pay for the electricity bill, or put food on the table (the dining table )...!!
The motor in the DeWalt is noisy as you mention, Dave, but it is quieter than my dust extractor, so that doesn't make much difference to me overall.
The first cut I made, I thought 'crap, I didn't set the blade high enough'. The blade was actually cutting was so quietly that I didn't realise it was doing the job!
Anyway, I thought I'd just say thanks for everyone's contributions and advice.
The Sawstop undoubtedly is a safe saw to use from the perspective of unscheduled digit removal but it basically came down to price. It was a choice between an $850 saw or no table saw because I just could not justify the $2500+ price tag. Plus it seems some of the essential accessories are 'optional' (read $$$) extras.
It was a hard decision to make but ultimately there is no point having a $2500+ table saw for hobby work and not having the money to pay for the electricity bill, or put food on the table (the dining table
)...!!The motor in the DeWalt is noisy as you mention, Dave, but it is quieter than my dust extractor, so that doesn't make much difference to me overall.
The first cut I made, I thought 'crap, I didn't set the blade high enough'. The blade was actually cutting was so quietly that I didn't realise it was doing the job!
Anyway, I thought I'd just say thanks for everyone's contributions and advice.
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